115 – Dr. Paula Durlofsky-Safer Social Media Practices For Gen Z.mp3 - powered by Happy Scribe

Ruthless Compassion is a podcast about how you can turn your emotional shit into fertilizer for success and see your darkest moments as opportunities to transform into a powerful kindness warrior. If you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review wherever you listen. Hi, I'm Dr. Marcia Sirota, and I'm inviting you to come and join me in my next online community event, where we'll be having a lively and meaningful group conversation about disconnecting from the workplace and dealing with burnout. The event will be held on Thursday, July 7, at 12:30 Eastern Time, and you can sign up at Ruthlesscompassioninstitute. Eventbrite.com. I look forward to seeing you and chatting with you then. Welcome Paula Durlofsky to the Ruthless Compassion podcast.

Thank you. I am so happy to be here.

Well, I'm very excited to have you. I mean, here you are, like you're a TV personality, right?

Well, I would say that I'm more in my office seeing people.

I know we'll get into that in a minute, but actually, why don't we start with you introducing yourself by telling the listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Sure. So I am a psychologist in private practice in BrBryn Mawr, PA, and I've been practicing for, I think, actually close to 20 years now. And I treat individuals, couples, and families that are struggling with living and relationships.

And how did you get into being a psychologist? Usually people have a good story about that.

Well, I think ever since I was a little girl and I think about this, and I think my earliest memory of thinking, being a psychologist sounds like a nice job, a nice thing to do. I think I was four years old, and at that time, actually, probably my mother was going back to college. She had not attended college, and I'm the youngest of three, and she was in school studying psychology. She didn't end up being a psychologist. She is a social worker. But psychology, I think, is her first love.

So after she sort of went on a little detour, you took up the gauntlet, right?

Maybe, yes, it sounds that way.

Were you always one of those sensitive kids who felt things deeply?

Absolutely. I am the youngest. I also went to art school, so I had pursued the arts, and I minored in psychology for my bachelor's. And I also was very involved in dance and the creative outlets and art and writing was something I love to do. I would sit in my room and write and draw and daydream, all good ingredients for being a good psychologist.

I think it's so funny when you're telling your backstory, it's like you're describing me. It's so weird because I have a big, big history in dance and in writing and in visual art, and I have a philosophy degree, so I did a lot of detours before I got to medical school in residency and psychiatry. So it's funny, and I agree. I think all my creative stuff has really prepared me so well for the profession.

There's so much overlap between visual arts and music and writing and philosophy. There's just no doubt that the overlap is there. And it's all a part of the human psyche, which is what we do. We talk about feelings and the experience of what it means to live and to be a wife and the ups and downs that everyone who is living will experience, but in their own way, which is kind of neat too, right? Everybody has their own story, but yet we're all part of this big collective story. So it's interesting.

For sure. And you somehow got into talking about the digital age. How did you get into that?

Well, I was noticing that people were beginning to talk about how their social media use and screen use would affect their mental health. And more and more people were discussing. And I'd say this was probably like a good six, seven eight years ago spending hours sometimes like a day inside and looking and attached to their screens or involved in doing gaming. For instance and really talking about how social media at that time and this was before more of the research and people began to come out and talk about the negative effects of social media. And it was really, I think, more being discussed in my office, of course, but maybe just with friends or relatives, maybe that would be helpful. But it was definitely people were talking about really getting stuck in social media and having a very hard time working out of their feelings of feeling bad about themselves, becoming very judgy with themselves and those that were coming in already with issues around a really harsh internal critical dialogue. After scrolling through social media, it would be 10, 20 times worse. So it's really, really hard for many people.

Yes, I've noticed that there's a lot of comparisons happening and competition happening when people use social media.

Yeah, it really triggers that internal critical voice that someone is already struggling with. And I think it can create on one own because when you are scrolling through social media, you're usually by yourself. So there's no one to bounce any feelings or thoughts or you know. Hey, this makes me feel this way. Or why do you think this person posted whatever picture or at that time? Why would somebody at that time post whatever it is that they posted that would trigger within someone a very critical, harsh reaction to themselves? And I really began to notice that these negative reactions would just grow so quickly.

It's very powerful, the impact it can have, right?

Yeah.

So let me ask you, do you have any thoughts of what people can do who are spending a lot of time on their phone or their tablets and scrolling constantly through some of the sites that are particularly difficult, such as Instagram, where people can really present themselves in a way that's not necessarily authentic and much better than real life really is. And so what do you do with people? How do you help them navigate these different worlds?

Well, the first thing I say is good for those that say look, I am getting stuck, I am on social media too much. When I'm on it, I feel badly. That is such a start because you're recognizing the problem and the way you feel when you're on social media. So the first thing I say after that, after you have been able to zero in on social media being a trigger and to take time to get a real understanding of what your social media use is. And a way to do that is to just simply keep a journal or log as one would maybe do with food or any other behavior that you're trying to understand more. So to log in or write when you're going on social media and how you're feeling before you are logging on, which could be a good way into well, what is triggering me, for instance? Am I feeling lonely? Am I looking to avoid a certain work responsibility or relationship responsibility for some reason? You know that you can't get to if you're on social media that takes some reflection and talking out. And then to check in with yourself about how you're feeling when you're on social media.

What's your intention? Which many people say is, well I'm just checking in for five or ten minutes but then an hour has gone by and they're still there. And then how do you feel afterwards? And what is common is people would say, b, they feel worse and, b, they feel guilty. And they feel guilty because they had avoided doing something .Or they feel guilty that they are looking at accounts that doesn't make them feel better about themselves. It really is a slippery slope and can certainly become its own cycle of sabotage. So that's what I say to those that are just beginning to get a handle on their social media and to really work at later on getting to the bottom of what's driving the social media use to this extent of course.

It's so interesting, it sounds so familiar because I deal a lot with addiction. And it sounds like the way you're describing it, the way they're using it to avoid and then creating a new problem through the avoidance. It sounds so much like my patients who overeat or who use drugs and they're using the addictive behavior to avoid some feeling or some relationship issue and then they create a new problem through their avoidance behavior.

Yeah, and I also think what you're saying about the consumption of food or the consumption of alcohol, that social media is also a consumption of information or images that you are consuming. It anything we pay attention to or we are engaged in, there some kind of a consumption that we take into our psyche and internalize and then react to it.

It's very similar. And I guess we have to use the same kind of mindfulness and tuning in and looking at what we're trying to avoid and how it makes us feel in the same way.

Right, right, exactly. And I think for some people or for all of us, but depending on the issues that one has with their social media consumption, this is a lot of the skills that we learn offline is how to have relationships that are healthy and that nourish our souls rather than to deplete us. And there's a lot of research that's coming out just as in our real life that are attachments that are formed in our early years which very much impact our emotional health and our relationships the way that we relate to others. The same thing is going to happen with social media. So if, for instance, you're struggling with secure attachments offline, there's a good possibility that you will also struggle with social media in a relational context. So those that are, for instance, anxiously attached typically seek a lot of reassurance. Right. And that it's very difficult for the anxiously attached individual to act from their own psyche, that they don't feel very solid, they don't have a solid sense of themselves. So this outward reassurance or how somebody perceives them is how they then formulate their sense of themselves and that's not a solid sense of self.

So the same principles could apply to social media, making it a roller coaster ride for somebody that's anxiously attached. And what will be so important to them is, oh my gosh, you know, how many likes did I get? And if I didn't get any likes, it could be very crushing and really create a lot of problems.

Well, you're talking about trauma bonding and I'm wondering what the connection is here. It sounds like people who are more anxiously attached are probably more prone to trauma bonding and maybe you want to talk a little bit about that.

That is a really interesting and important topic to talk about. Trauma bonding and particularly also how it happens in real life that these enactments of being victimized by someone who, there are two parts to it, right. There's the victim and then there is the perpetrator. And yeah, that absolutely can happen with our digital relationships and communications. And I think ghosting is kind of in a more intimate relationship or somebody that I think it's really important to first of all, just like in real life, it takes a long time to get to know someone. It really does and that we don't really get to know who someone is in three months or six months or sometimes even a year. It takes many years to get to know someone deeply. And I think that it's important for those that suffer from trauma to be aware of when they are early on in a relationship feeling this deep bond too early that that is a signal to take a step back. And the way that we can do that digitally is to step back from our digital communications. And that doesn't mean, of course, to cut them off, but to slow them down, to get and give yourself more time, room and space to experience your emotions with someone digitally.

So a trauma bonding, you know, one of the characteristics would be like a lot of digital communication back and forth, maybe like hundreds of texts per day and very early on in a relationship or even later on in a relationship would be, I think, a warning sign.

Yeah. I always tell my patients who've had childhood trauma that intensity is the enemy of intimacy.

Yeah.

So for people who are involved in trauma bonding, you also say that when they have too much intensity and then also they go hot and cold with kindness and cruelty. Right.

They are victims of that type of abuse. Right, Trauma bonding usually, right, that the victim is kind of pulled like a yoyo.

And so for you initially it's to step back and then if you really have somebody who is doing that, you're saying the best way to do it is to have no contact. Right. To walk away, to.

Slow it down so that you have the room space and the time to get a better understanding of what's going on. To feel that you can slow things down. And if the individual, after slowing down and with some help, hopefully and some support, if indeed this is an enactment of trauma, that they get the help to quickly shut it down immediately.

And I suppose anything slowing down helps us with anything. It helps us to see what's really going on, to really tune into our feelings and see what's really going on. When we're in a hurry, it's very hard to be present and to really notice what's going on.

Right, absolutely. And I think part of the trigger with trauma survivors too is that the feeling from someone that wants to talk to you that supposedly, quote unquote, I'm saying, finds that person very important, very attractive, very valued, that those are the messages that the recipient is receiving from someone that is talking more like that the victim is receiving these messages from the perpetrator. That that's a normal feeling and that if you are a trauma victim, not to feel guilty or bad about yourself for wanting that type of relationship or for others, someone important to see you in that way, that's a very healthy thing. We all need that. That's part of being human. But it's when we receive it from those that are ultimately rejecting and really what's going on in that trauma bonding relationship is that the other person that they don't see the victim as an individual. They're just an object to be used for their own validation, which is usually from a narcissistic point of view. Right. Pathological narcissistic.

That's really fascinating. Well. I want to switch gears a little bit because I want to talk about some behavior that I have witnessed a lot on the part of some of my patients or my patients partners. Which is people who are looking on Facebook all about their ex. Or who are looking into their partner's emails or just digging for information about other people or violating some kind of social media boundaries. What's going on with all that?

Well, I think that what you bring up is I would really be curious as to why somebody would even begin to do that. And I think that it's important that people really pay attention to their gut. And like we were talking about a little while ago. That using social media consumption to avoid difficult feelings or perhaps an issue in a relationship or perhaps a career that one is really not satisfied with. Or that they use social media to avoid reflecting you know on these problems. That what one may want to consider is are they using social media to check up on their partners or exes? Well, I would like to say with their partners right now that there's something going on that is not in their awareness. And I would suggest to step away from doing that behavior for a little bit and give yourself time to really think about it, and to discuss it with a therapist or maybe even with your partner.

So there's something emotionally going on that instead of dealing with the feelings, they're just going to the compulsive behavior.

Right. And there may be also, like you're talking about, I'm not sure about a relationship maybe, where snooping maybe has to do with not feeling safe and secure within the relationship. And why is that? And in regards to an X, I think that the digital age really presents us with a lot of challenges, those that are trying to heal from a romantic breakup because you can access somebody's very private information. Well, actually it's public, but their day to day life through social media, and it can really interfere with being able to mourn in a less complicated way. So I think it's important for those that are going through a breakup to remind oneself for them why checking up on an ex wouldn't be in their best interest. And that doesn't mean that a year from now, if you have a very normal urge to go look at your excess social media and to satisfy that urge quickly, but very early on in a break up in a healing process, that's not your best decision for yourself.

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, because I've had so many conversations with patients who have been snooping about their exes, and yeah, it prevents them from grieving and letting go.

Yeah, and it's perfectly normal, of course. But I really think it's important that we talk about digital self-care. And it's really hard and like we were saying about with trauma bonding, that I think that trauma bonding happens even more quickly because it's not just a relationship in real life, you know, you also have this 24 hour access to a person. So the relationship just becomes so intense so quickly and I just think that really being aware of needing to have self-care practices in the digital age, which would include stepping away from your screen or even taking really intentional breaks or a digital detox or whatever you want to call it, that is hard. Really hard, but necessary.

No, I've been taking to going for my walks and leaving my phone behind. Like usually I put on music but even just leave the phone and just walk with nothing like in the old days.

Right, and I think that brings up or underscores such an important issue that so many people think that they turn to their phones or screens for relaxation. But I'm sure you've never heard someone say, and I know I haven't, say oh my God, I feel so relaxed after scrolling through social media.

No.

Right. That won't fit the bill. We do need to incorporate and schedule, like you're saying, time outside, time for reading a book, time with friends and family, time for exercise, time for meditation or listening to music, art, writing to pursue the creative outlets. To daydream. We really all need that.

I'm with you 100%. I think that stuff is so vital and so vital for our emotional well being to have that balance and I think anything in excess is really, becomes a problem.

And it's so important for the path that we take to know who we are because part of our identity comes from our preferences, our passions and our hobbies and they take time to cultivate and to develop and social media cuts into that time.

The other thing you just said, which I wanted to really stress is you were saying a minute ago that, relationships really take a long time to develop and I agree because to really get to know somebody, to really get to see somebody on a deep level, on an intimate level, it does take a really long time. Now you're saying also that hobbies and pastimes that are meaningful take a long time for us to discover and to develop and for them to become fulfilling to us. So you're saying that things that are important, relationships and pastimes, require a lot of time and social media is kind of this instant thing, right, where you get instant gratification. It's not necessarily conducive to taking a lot of time to cultivate relationships or pastimes.

Right. It does not allow us that time. And we're learning more and more that social media is designed to have the user engaged for as long as possible. So it's really difficult for people to pull away from their screens.

Yeah, it's like the nicotine that they put in cigarettes, right? It's made specifically to keep us using it more.

Right. That it manipulates our essence, which is to connect to other people.

I'm sure it also makes our dopamine go up. So it makes us crave it more. Right. It triggers our dopamine centers in our brain.

Yeah. So I think it's so important that people and parents especially, and teachers talk about social media and how to skillfully use it with their kids and with students, and to talk about exactly what you're saying, too, is the physical and biological effect that social media has on all of our bodies and brains and particularly those that are still growing.

Yeah, I think it's a very powerful tool and it needs to be used with caution. And I think because it's so young, it's such a new tool, people don't realize how careful we need to be with it.

I think you're right about that.

Like any new thing, it takes us a while to really understand it. But now that we're understanding it, I think your warning is very important and I think everyone should heed it.

Yeah. And I think going back to what you were saying, too, that slowing down, that things that are important and meaningful in life take time and that we all need to take a step back and slow down with our social media, youth and consumption.

Absolutely. Well, I'm going to ask you another question, which is going to sound silly, but I'm very fascinated about how you ended up becoming immortalized as the inspiration for the character of Dr. Paula Agard on the popular US. Network show, Suits. That's in your bio. So I need to ask you, how did that happen? How did that come about?

Well, the creator of Suits, Aaron Korsh. I went to high school with, and he had created Suits, and most of his characters were actually named after former classmates and his friends and people that he went all through school with, but I think primarily high school. And one day I was in my office and I got a call from his show from a woman saying, hey, they would like to use your name for a new character who is a psychiatrist. And Aaron is asking if we can use it. And that's how it happened. And I was so honored and so thrilled and was so flattered, and I thanked him and I watched the show, of course, and he's just done so many great things. So that was really cool.

Did they have anything about you in that character, or was it simply the name?

It was simply the name, I think. Yeah, that's what I think. She was a great character.

Oh, yeah. She was the blonde woman, right?

Right.

Yeah. She was a great character. Yeah.

Although she did cross some boundaries there, right.

But isn't it the case on TV and in the movies that psychiatrists and psychologists and therapists are always terrible with boundaries. On TV and the movies, right?

Well, oftentimes, actually. I was very grateful that Erin did not make her to be a character that could have been very harmful to other people, too. You've seen, I'm sure, movies where everything will help become extremely unstable.

Yeah. You wonder about the writer and their experiences with therapy.

Aaron's mother is a psychologist, and actually, I have worked with her early on. A really nice woman and a professional. So I don't know, I think it shows, like, a positive experience, too.

Yeah, for him, he was able to make the character a positive one because he had good experiences. Well, I wanted to ask you before we get going where people can find you if they're looking for you, because you have so many interesting things that you've written and so many appearances you've made. There's so much going on. I'd love to have people get access to all of that.

Well, I do write for Psychology Today, and the name of my blog is called Logged In and Stressed Out. And it's where I cover topics about the difficulties or challenges of living in the digital age. So that's one aspect of what I do. And as I said, I am in private practice, and I have a website if people would like to visit that. And there's more information on my website about my book, Logged In and Stressed Out. And my website address is www.drpauladurlofsky.com. And I am in the process of starting a new project with a great artist who actually just wrote a book,Ooh, The Pics that You'll Post. And we are talking about writing a book for, I think, young girls and women, ages like 18 to 25 about how to skillfully use social media.

That will be very handy. Gen Z needs that.

Yes.

That's great. Well, before we go. One last thing, I'd love to hear a call to action from you for the listener, something that they could think about or something that they could try doing.

Saying that, being really mindful of being kind to yourself, particularly on social media, and to have an attitude of kindness and compassion that we all make mistakes. We all mess up. We all compare ourselves to other people. It's the way we figure out who we are, and it's useful information for us. And it helps put us on a path so we can carve out our unique life and story. So I think it's so important to really be kind and compassionate with yourself.

Well, I think that's a wonderful call to action, and it can't be repeated enough, in my opinion.

Yeah.

Well, Paula Durlofsky, I really appreciate you coming on the Ruthless Compassion Podcast. You have really important things to say, and you say them so succinctly and kindly yourself. So it's really been a pleasure chatting with you today.

Oh, thank you. I am so happy that I was here. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure and an honor. Thank you.

This is Dr. Marcia, Sirota. Thank you for listening. Please leave a review and your comments wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to sign up for my free newsletter www.marciasirotamd.com, where you'll learn about upcoming online events as well. Also, we love getting referrals from our listeners about future podcast guests, so please email us at info@marciasirotamd.com.