118-Shanenn Bryant-Moving Beyond being a "Jealousy Junkie".mp3 - powered by Happy Scribe

Ruthless Compassion is a podcast about how you can turn your emotional shit into fertilizer for success and see your darkest moments as opportunities to transform into a powerful kindness warrior. If you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review wherever you listen. Welcome Shannon Bryant to the Ruthless Compassion podcast.

Thanks so much for having me.

Well, I'm super excited about today's topic. It's a very juicy one and I'm sure lots of people will relate to it. Let's jump right in and you can introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your journey and how you got to today's very interesting topic.

Yes, it is juicy, for sure. I am a certified life coach, and I'm one of the very few who focus on this topic, which is extreme jealousy and relationships, and it really just evolved. I had a previous podcast that I ran, and through that I was invited to speak with a women's ACA group. I am an adult child of an alcoholic. My father was an alcoholic. So I'm very familiar with the behavior characteristics that come with growing up in that environment. And so they asked me to speak and it was supposed to be an hour talk, and at the end they do this Q & A session and it turned into two and a half hours because as soon as they did Q & A, all the virtual hands went up. And by the time the host got to even the third woman, she was literally crying and saying, you have no idea how you just changed my life. I thought I was the only one too that suffered from this. And so that continued with very similar feedback and comments. And I thought, well, now that is something that I am certainly an expert on, because I experienced it for years and years throughout my own relationships and have been able to overcome it. And I've been with my husband for 13 years now.

That's amazing. So your own personal experience evolved into you being a coach and helping people with similar issues, right?

Yeah.

Well, it's very interesting because when I think about my psychotherapy practice, which went on for many years, I think about patients who grew up in homes where there was very little love and the children became very competitive toward one another for the crumbs of love right. For whatever crumbs they could find. And I could see that as the seed of jealousy for the future. Is that something similar to what happened to you in your life?

Mine was a bit different, but you're right, there is the competitive piece of jealousy. When that does happen in early childhood, that can certainly then result into childhood. Mine was a little bit different. My father just growing up in that environment. We didn't speak after my parents separated. I was about twelve when they finally got divorced. And at the time I said to him, I don't want to have anything to do with you. As long as you're still drinking. I don't want to see you. I don't want to speak with you. And he took that to heart, and so I didn't speak to him again for another 13 years. And even though I was the one that said. I don't want to have anything to do with you if you're drinking. I didn't think that that would be his choice. But it was. And I didn't know it at the time. But the loop that continued to play in my head throughout all of those years was. Well. If my own father doesn't love me, how am I worthy of anyone else to love me? And certainly going back to your point in terms of childhood, it was so chaotic.

There certainly wasn't the opportunity for even my mom and certainly not my dad to care for us kids properly. And so understanding what a healthy relationship is supposed to look like, having that feeling of being cared for and nurtured so that you have that confidence going into adulthood, so that you feel very confident in your feelings of self-worth were absent.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So before we go on, I thought we should define jealousy, because a lot of people confuse it with envy. So could you give us a good definition of that kind of pathological jealousy?

Sure. So envy is really when maybe I am envious of my neighbor's new car that they just got or my friend's large house or how much money they make. It could even be I'm envious of someone who received a promotion that I wanted. So that's really envy. When it comes to jealousy, it is very much internal in you based on the way that you feel, what you're experiencing. So jealousy is more where you get into kind of the three main types of projection, protection, and competition. We talked about the competition one, but that's more where you're afraid that you're going to lose something. You are afraid something's going to be taken away from you, and you really kind of hold on tight and try to control your heart being broken. And that's the type of jealousy and the people that I work with.

That's a clear definition and distinction. But could you say more about the projection, protection and competition? Because that's an interesting concept I haven't heard of before.

Yeah. So projection is really when I may be in a relationship where I'm accusing my partner of, let's say, being flirtatious at work. I don't really have any true evidence that they're flirtatious at work, but I'm asking them a lot of questions. Who do you talk to during the day? Who are you working with? What projects are you working? Who's in the project team that you're working with? Are you flirting with them? I'm really questioning them on how they're behaving at work. And I often tell people when we're doing that, you may want to look to yourself how you're behaving at work, like, are you being overly flirtatious with the guy in accounting? Possibly. And we may do that because we think, well, I know that I'm not going to take it any further, but then does that mean my partner is doing that? And I don't know how far they are going to take it. So it's really kind of doing that projection of something we may be doing ourselves that then we are projecting on to our partner and accusing them of. So that's projection. Competition is what you mentioned, doesn't have to be siblings necessarily.

It could be that there is someone else in their life who they are giving attention to that you are seeking. So it even could be a parent where they're going over and mowing the lawn or they're always going to lunch or dinner with their mom, or it could be their sister and you don't feel like you're getting sort of that same attention from them. So that's competition and then the biggest one that I feel most of us suffer from is the protection one. And that is the case where we're really trying to protect that great big heart of ours from being broken or we don't want our relationship to end. We are fearful that they will find someone else and leave us and abandon us. So that's the protection piece.

So when people are expressing jealousy, how do the people on the receiving end usually end up feeling?

That is a great question and it's a very difficult situation for them to be in. And I'll just use my husband and our own experience as an example. But it got to the point where he started changing his behaviors, even from how he was entering a room and who he would sit next to and wouldn't sit next to and what he felt comfortable doing. He felt like he had to walk with his head down. He felt like he couldn't enjoy dinner because I was constantly on the attack and it's very difficult for them to understand, especially because in our minds, we are so hyper focused on it. So we may be out to a restaurant. We're going to dinner. If you are what I call a jealousy junkie, you immediately have scanned the room. You're looking for all of those potential threats that you think your partner might be attracted to or who they might look at or who they may be interested in. And we've usually done it before we've even put our name in with the hostess, so we already know it's there. It is top of mind for us. We're hyper focused on it.

They're just going to dinner. And so if then we're at dinner and I see that person, my partner, look in the direction of the person that I thought that they were going to be attracted to, then that could potentially cause sort of a jealous meltdown. When you bring that up, they're shocked, they're surprised, they don't understand they may have just been looking for the restroom or looking at a piece of art that's on the wall that happened to be in that person's direction, so I think sometimes people we like to say very black and white terms like well if they get defensive that means they are guilty. It's so not true and it's not always the case they are very much often caught off guard and it seems very foreign to them that I don't understand and then they get to where at a certain point if that continues then they do start to change their behaviors as my husband did I'm afraid to look up from my salad. So it's very hard on the partner.

Will the partner sometimes just say I can't and leave?

Absolutely! And we've talked about that so many times. Should my husband have stayed with me? I don't know. I mean probably not. Thank goodness he did. But it does start to wear on a person very quickly and I think that's when we get to almost that desperate mode of I know I'm going to lose this relationship or I just can't stand feeling this way anymore when people would seek help.

And when you were saying I can't stand feeling this way, how does it feel to be a jealousy junkie? What does it feel like inside?

It's constant anxiety. So there's a lot of you already have sort of these regular emotions. You're fearful. You can be sad but then there's the self conscious emotions that we have the shame. The guilt. The embarrassment. And it almost runs in this whole cycle. So I'm fearful therefore I act and then my actions lead me to feeling embarrassed and ashamed and guilty for the way I behaved. But it's a constant knots in your stomach anxiety through the roof and it becomes a very habitual way to live life where you're always upset. It will start to affect things that you do just in your general everyday. We stop going to dinners. We stop going to the movies. We stop doing a lot of things because inevitably it would cause an argument and so having that living with that constant fear and stomach ache. You can't sleep there's a lot of anxiety tied to it.

It sounds like a miserable way to live.

It really is. It really is and there's the piece where often I may speak with my friend especially when you're really at the height of it and it's an everyday it's a habitual thing that's on your mind. So I may call a friend and I'm just wearing my friends out of saying well he did this and what do you think this meant? And I checked his phone, I checked his email and I saw you used an emoji. It really is this vicious cycle and when your friend responds and says, gosh I wouldn't even have noticed that or that wouldn't bother me, it almost fuels it more because then you start thinking again, why can't I just be, "norma"? I'm so broken. I'm such a bad person, and I don't understand why I'm the only one that's like this.

And you're going through their emails and you're going through their text, and you're violating their boundaries at the same time, which I'm sure doesn't make anyone feel good.

No. And I always say questions breed questions. I always like to think of, I wish I would have been paid for that time because it was like a part-time job. I was constantly going through his phone, his email. What did this mean? How come I can't see the rest of the conversation? Did he delete it? Is he deleting text messages, looking up on location and then even where he may just be talking about his day and just trying to connect with me as partners do at the end of the night and talk about their day? I'm listening intently, but I'm not listening intently out of love. I'm listening intently to see if there's anything that I should be worried about. Is anything that doesn't match up with something else that they said. So it's just never being present and never being in the moment.

It reminds me of the court thing. So for the average person, their partner is innocent until proven guilty, and for the jealousy junkie, they're guilty until proven innocent.

Well, yes. And it's very difficult for them to prove their innocence because when you go down that track and I mentioned questions breed questions. Okay, now I've asked this. I see this. I've asked the question. You've answered it. I'm still not satisfied with that. Or I go look. I don't really see anything, which just must mean they're really good at hiding it.

That's why you're talking about it being a junkie, because it really becomes an addictive, compulsive behavior where nothing satisfies. So you just keep doing it over and over again, and you never get your satisfaction. So you just keep repeating the behavior until either you seek help because you're so miserable or your partner says, enough, and they walk out. Right?

100%. Yeah. It's not because they love it so much. It's quite the opposite. But yes, you get on that cycle, and there is sort of a rush or benefit, of course, it wouldn't be there if it wasn't benefiting them some way or they weren't getting something out of it. And so sometimes I'm going to subconsciously do this because I'm not getting the attention that I need. And if I do this and I create this argument and we make up, then I'm going to get that attention. So it's not something that you go in thinking that way, but then that's what you get. You get a lot of reassurance. You get a lot of attention from them, which then just breeds it more.

Yeah, it's funny because you're talking about jealousy junkies. And you're saying that you've dealt with a lot of women who had jealousy. And in media, it's usually men who are jealous. Are men and women different in the way that they express or deal with their jealousy?

Yes, I don't work with men, but not to say that at some point I wouldn't. But men are a little bit different and it really kind of goes back to the beginning of time and just why jealousy was there in the first place. So for men, they're really just seeking out that sexual partner of who they can have babies with. Right. And so they are going to get jealous if it's that physical attraction or somebody else kind of comes down to if someone is sleeping with their person, then they're unable to do that and they're able to have children. I'm paraphrasing kind of here of generalizing the biological imperative. Yes. And women are more seeking that comfort, that safety, someone who's going to take care of them and they don't want that taken away. And while there are, I'm sure, a lot of similarities, there's a bit of a core difference.

Do jealousy junkies ever go over the line into violence?

Well, yes. I mean, if we think about the number three reason for murder, essentially, right. So, yes, that can absolutely lead to extreme violence. And, you know, that's a very dangerous situation. Now, most people aren't going to take it to that length, but I will say the height of those emotions and how strong they are in the moment can be a very dangerous situation.

It's the number three reason for murder. I never would have imagined that. That's pretty shocking. Do you know what numbers one and two are?

Greed or money or one of those. But those kind of top things where we know somebody is potentially going to murder someone because there's a financial benefit or whatever the second one is, and then yeah, third is being jealous.

That's amazing. So what you're really saying is that the feelings can get very hot.

Very intense. Very intense. So how do you treat jealousy?

So, you're coaching and you obviously got through your own. So, how do you deal with this issue? It's so intense. I would imagine it would be quite challenging to treat.

Yes. And it's really burning the candle at both ends, as they say. So one is really focusing on the habit piece of it first. And so I like to say there are two habits to address. One is your activity habits. So checking phones, emails, those types of outwardly things, checking their location. And then there's the thinking habits. What is the loop? What is going on that you've been telling yourself? What is that that's on replay that you're worried about, that you feel like jealousy is there for? Because jealousy really is a solution. People will say, I have a problem with jealousy, but the jealousy is there to try to indicate to you. Just like if I put my hand on a burner, I feel that sensation. It's a warning for me. So we don't ever want it to fully go away, but we want it to go away where it's not controlling your life anymore. But what's going on? What are those things that you're telling yourself? So, for me, it was that my father didn't love me and so therefore I wasn't worthy of love. I didn't know that that was kind of what's on replay.

But when you start to become aware of your thoughts and what's going on, what's happening, when you're triggered, what's your environment like, what were you doing just before? What was the situation? So working on your acting habits and your thinking habits are a starting point. But then you really do have to get to the root cause and a lot of that thinking piece of it helps to get to the root cause of that jealousy because it could be that someone's experienced a relationship where there was infidelity or a series of relationships with infidelity and so why are we choosing those people? Are we choosing people that aren't good for us? So there's a lot that goes into it, but I usually like to start with the habits because those can be quick wins for someone. It does take a bit of time to really work through it because anything that's deep rooted, especially going back to your childhood, is going to take time to work through and heal through those things. The habits piece are some quick wins that someone could get and thinking about, oh, my gosh, I haven't checked his location in three days. It's a win.

Yeah, absolutely. It's a behavioral change. I was just thinking, imagine if a young girl has a father who is constantly unfaithful to her mother. She might develop this unconscious belief that she can never trust any man to be faithful.

Exactly. Right. Looking back to see, well, how were relationships displayed to me? How did I see them? How are they explained to me? What were my examples of relationships? Was it a healthy example?

Yeah, one of my patients told me just the other day, she said, I don't have any healthy relationships as examples in my life, not in her family, not in her social world. She said, I don't know anyone who's in a healthy relationship, so how can I expect to have one of my own? And I was thinking like, this poor woman has unconsciously surrounded herself by people who are also in these very dysfunctional relationships like she grew up with.

Yes. And that happens to a lot of us, right. Because we have that inherited trauma, potentially. This is the way that my father was raised and that's what his dad did, so that's what he saw and that's what he did. So then I'm going to pass that on to my sons and that's the way that they're going to behave in their relationships and yes. So it can go for many generations until someone says, I don't want to be this way, I don't want to continue on, and I have to be the one to really break that cycle and figure out what is a healthy relationship, what does it look like and how can I be in one. For me, I certainly ended relationships with people that were probably good men, good people. But I was so used to at the time. I mean, I grew up in chaos, and so I got bored if it was good, I got bored thinking, well, where's the chaos? Not that I wanted it. I was just used to it. And so when it wasn't there, I thought, this must not be the right person for me. I'm kind of bored with this relationship.

You know what I think about that from my experiences with therapist? It's like when you're living in chaos, you have to shut down emotionally to numb yourself because otherwise it's overwhelming. So you make yourself emotionally numb. And so then when you go in a relationship with an ordinary person, it feels boring because you're emotionally numbed. If you can start to go back to your feelings, tune into your feelings and wake up your emotions and be more emotionally present, then you won't be bored with a normal person because you will be fully alive and awake and feeling everything, and you won't need chaos in order to feel something. Right?

Yes.

I said to my patients, the same patient, I said, being in a dysfunctional relationship is like a form of self-harm, because even if they're not harming you, like, the yelling and the chaos is self-harm. So being emotionally awake prevents you from self-harming because you can feel everything you need to feel without having to put yourself in situations that are bad for you.

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And when you're in that situation, then you move to the extreme. Right. I moved to people who were horrible for me and stayed in those way too long because I thought that's what I deserved. But also well, it's exciting. It's chaotic.

That numbing makes you much more likely to be in those chaotic, destructive situations. I was thinking about how young women who self harm, it's like the same thing. They've been in these awful family environments, and they've shut down so much that then they can't feel anything. So they self harm so that they can feel something. And because they're so angry, they obviously can't express their anger safely, so they express it against themselves by self-harming.

Yes. That's terrible.

It's really sad. But it reminds me of this, what you're talking about. It's like when you numb yourself emotionally as a protection, it really puts you at risk of harm either by yourself or from others.

Yeah. And there's really a lot of things to be discovered there. I always knew I'm missing big chunks of time. I can't really remember school the way that my friends talk about it. They can remember some of their teachers names and certain events and just a lot of things that happened. I can't. And I know now that's from similar to what you're saying, it's very hard to go from your dad is holding a gun to your mom's head once. Yes. And then you have to wake up and go to school and learn multiplication and division the next day.

It's crazy. It's absurd.

Yeah. So we certainly do that. And our brains are protecting us. Our body is trying to protect us.

Yeah. You dissociate in order to keep putting one foot in front of the other, but you're not there. You're there, but you're not there.

Yes. Certainly not learning anything.

My goodness. I'm so sorry that those kinds of things happen to you. Wow.

Thank you.

Sounds really awful.

It certainly was. And I appreciate that. Thank you.

So here you are. You're working with jealousy people. Have you seen people engaging in better relationships where they're more emotionally present, where they're more relaxed, where they're more able to trust their partner and just enjoy? Have you seen good success with your work?

Yeah. So one of the examples that I use, I remember when I was really at my lowest, it was just a horrible day. I remember it like it was yesterday. I was crying so hard and saying, I just want to be able to lay my head down at night and feel calm and feel safe. I've never been able to do that since I was a child. I've never been able to do that. And so that's sort of part of it, is going from jealous and fearful to common confident. Sometimes that may take maybe it happens in the relationship that you're in, and maybe sometimes that relationship dissolves and you're able to do that in the next relationship. So it's definitely something that takes time. And really getting those habits is certainly the start to it. But yes, I never take for granted that every time I lay down, it's so calming and peaceful and my brain is just not on fire. All of that chatter and I mentioned earlier, when you get to that point, I'm not sick of myself anymore. And that's maybe the best way I can explain it. When people are at that just verge of, I cannot do this anymore. I can't stand my own thoughts. I can't stand to listen to myself. I've worn my friends out. My partner is on the verge of leaving. And in that desperate situation and going from that to feeling calm and not having all that chatter in your mind where you're sleeping, you're able to rest and you feel secure. That's a win.

What has your husband said in terms of noticing the change in you?

I mean, we have truly a completely different life. As I mentioned, we weren't going to dinners and movies and vacations and any of those things when it was really bad. And so I think we both felt like we have our life back now. And I think the biggest thing for him is he's comfortable now. He can tell me about his day, and I'm listening to him because I care about his day. And of course, you can tell the difference when somebody is listening to you from a place of love or listening so that they can pounce. Right. So he's able to be himself and tell me things and have discussions with me and it's fine.

And have your clients also been able to tell you these kinds of stories? Like to say, I'm with my partner or my new partner and it's so different.

Yeah. I mean, going from all of the chaos to even having where the questioning? And I think that's usually the biggest thing the quickest is not questioning and having my whole list of questions, and what did you do and where were you and who were you with? And that is probably the quickest big win.

So that would be a big motivator for people to come and talk to you, right. So they could just kind of come down off that ledge and just kind of calm down and their partner can feel less attacked, less interrogated.

Right. And I always say they really need to do it for themselves, but a lot of times that's a driving factor. They're so upset with me, my partner is going to leave that's a driving factor for someone, but it should be something that we're doing for ourselves, because if it's not that partner, it's going to be the next partner. Most of the time, it doesn't matter the person. I behaved the same way with many people, not just my husband, for sure.

Yeah, I've seen patients in psychotherapy who had difficult types of behavior, and I could tell for sure that they were going to behave this way, whoever they were with, and it was going to be difficult and possibly disastrous in each relationship. So yeah, that you have to change that problematic behavior, whatever it is, whether it's jealousy or enmeshment with your family or whatever.

Yes, absolutely.

So what is different about being an adult child of an alcoholic specifically, than a kid who grows up with a dysfunctional family in general? Is there something different about it?

I think they're very similar. You know, one of the things that really changed me and started me on this journey, I was in therapy. I'd been to several therapists, but I went into it with, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. Just tell me what to do. And as you know, that doesn't really work, but my husband and I, we actually got kicked out of therapy, or what I like to say. We were invited not to come back. But just because of the way that I was approaching it and just tell me what to do, and I would rehash everything. And I just wasn't open to a new explanation. I wasn't open to anything different than what I believed, what I was saying, how things were. So when we were kicked out of therapy or invited not to come back, I was given the laundry list. And so ACA has a laundry list. And that's 14 behavior characteristics of an adult child of an alcoholic. When I went through that and I looked at, I thought, oh my gosh. One, if there's a list, that means there must be a solution. And if there's a list, that means I'm not the only one that feels and operates this way.

But I do know that they have and others that with other types of childhood trauma, a lot of these things on the laundry list are the same for them. They can absolutely relate to those things on the laundry list.

So what's your relationship with alcohol, having had a father who would hold a gun to your mother's head when drunk?

Yeah, people can go many different ways. Of course, there are some that I will never drink one drop of alcohol ever in my life because of what it did to me. And then there are some that take it to the extreme and they end up, of course, being an alcoholic themselves. And then there are some that are in the middle. And I consciously made the choice to say, I am never going to let that also run my life or dictate if I am or I'm not going to do something. So it's not that I never drink, but it certainly isn't where that is taken to the extreme. And so it's interesting because my husband is actually a recovering alcoholic. He has been sober for 15 years. And having that also is that constant reminder because there are times where he still will struggle with it. He does very well. He is a completely different person. I didn't even know him when he drank, so I've never known him as someone who drank a drop of alcohol. But I'm not on either end of the spectrum. But I certainly know and understand people who have ended up one way or the other.

I suspect he was probably more understanding with you because of his own struggles, huh?

It was something that was different, but yes, and understanding, okay, this is something that someone's struggling with. And I know how hard a struggle like that can be. And I think he could see almost the addictive side of it, of being kind of addictive as we talked about.

They don't have a Jealousy Anonymous, do they?

I know.

They have everything else.

I know. And they really should because it's one of the things where I'm one of the only few who talk about it because no one really wants to talk about it. And people are ashamed and embarrassed to say, yes, I am very jealous. I mean, people certainly are not putting that on their dating profiles. Right. Extremely jealous. So it's one of those that just doesn't get addressed that much.

Well, because even though every addiction is all about our woundedness, there are certain addictions, like, I would say, overeating and jealousy that are more embarrassing because they are more obviously a representation of our woundedness. Whereas being a workaholic, you can pretend that it's because you're passionate about your work being an exerciseaholic, you can pretend that you're into fitness, but if you're a jealous person or an overeater, it's pretty clear that you have emotional needs and wounds that aren't being addressed appropriately. So I think they're the ones that are more embarrassing. And drinking and drugging, you can hide, kind of, but jealousy is hard to hide.

Yeah. There's definitely no mask of success with jealousy. You're right.

Well, we'll work on getting J.A.

Yeah, I love it.

You can be the initiator of the Ja program.

Right? Well, that's great.

It's been great talking to you. Before we wrap up, do you have any projects that you're working on currently that people might be interested in finding out about?

Yes, I have two projects that are going on, but the big one that is launching here in just two and a half weeks on July 5 is the Jealousy Junkie podcast. I'm so excited about that. I have some really great guests that I've already recorded with that I've got lined up, and that is just my way as you sort of mentioned. We were kind of joking about Jealousy Anonymous. But it's a way for me to be able to bring other experts on and just talk about it. Give them some resources. Let them know that they're not alone. They're not the only one. And something where they don't have to advertise that they're listening to that podcast. Or they don't have to tell anyone they can listen to it when they're working out or in their car. So I'm really excited about the podcast coming.

That's great. And where can people find you if they're interested in exploring those things?

Jealousyjunkie.com is the website, and I'm also on Instagram. That's where I hang out the most. And that's jealousy junkie, coach.

Cool. Wonderful. Well, just before we end, I thought it would be nice for you to give a call to action for all the Jealousy Junkies out there. Something you could suggest for them.

Yeah, so I do have a free quiz that people can take. So if they do go to the Jealousy Junkie website and it's a free quiz that you can take, which emotion do I lead with so that they can kind of find out what emotion that they lead with. And that's a good starting point. So I'd love for people to check out the quiz.

Okay, wonderful. Well, thank you so much, shannon Bryant. This has been such an interesting conversation. And yes, the first person I've talked to about this in my 100 plus podcast. So really fun and I really appreciate all the insights and experiences and then how open you are about your own personal experience.

Thank you for letting me share.

This is Dr. Marcia Sirota. Thank you for listening. Please leave a review and your comments wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to sign up for my free newsletter at MarciaSirota.com, where you'll learn about upcoming online events as well. Also, we love getting referrals from our listeners about future podcast guests, so please email us at info@marciasirotamd.com