[00:00:00.890] – Marcia
Ruthless Compassion is a podcast about how you can turn your emotional shit into fertilizer for success and see your darkest moments as opportunities to transform into a powerful kindness warrior. If you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review wherever you listen.

[00:00:19.330] – Marcia
Welcome, Dr. Adam Bendelli to the Ruthless Compassion podcast.

[00:00:23.470] – Adam
Good morning, how are you?

[00:00:25.090] – Adam
I’m very well, thank you. How are you?

[00:00:27.850] – Adam
I’m doing good. Getting ready for turkey day a couple of weeks away in the US. Oh, that’s right, three or four weeks away from Thanksgiving.

[00:00:35.810] – Marcia
That’s right. That’s your big, big holiday, right? Everyone gets goes home.

[00:00:39.960] – Adam
That’s right. That’s right. Absolutely.

[00:00:41.950] – Marcia
Cool. Well, I’m very interested to talk to you today about your book about relational intelligence because I have so many questions about it. But before we do that, I thought maybe what you should do is introduce yourself to the listener and give a little thumbnail about who you are and what you do.

[00:00:59.480] – Adam
Yeah, absolutely. So name is Dr. Adam Vandelli. I’m a leadership advisor and organizational psychologist. Did my doctoral work down at the University of South Florida where I focused on developing the concept of relational intelligence. I did my dissertation about 15 years ago and this really stemmed from my passion around EQ. I was an undergrad when Daniel Goldman came out with the book in 1995. Emotional Intelligence why It Matters More Than IQ. And it really set me on a ten year old journey through my educational studies to look at both the positives and negatives associated with EQ. And what our research found is that emotional intelligence can be used for positive and negative purposes, and so people can use emotions to elicit inspiration and motivation and encourage people. But we’ve all seen the Narcissistic or Machiavellian people who can use emotions to in-still fear or to scare people, put anxiety in people. And so that led me to say, okay, if EQ can be used for positive and negative purposes, what set of skills could be used by people to build life changing relationships with others both personally and professionally? And so developed the concept of relational intelligence, which we define as the ability to successfully connect with people and build strong, long lasting relationships.

[00:02:12.790] – Adam
So I created the framework of the five skills we’ll talk about a little bit, and then I kind of put my dissertation on the shelf like most graduate students do, and started working. I joined a global management consulting firm where I spent a decade learning about executive coaching and how to help companies hire leaders how to build inclusive cultures. Started my company, Bandelli and Associates, in 2015 and we really focus on helping leaders identify, unlock, and unleash their authentic selves we’ll talk about when we discuss the book in a little bit. Relational intelligence is really about three things authenticity, intentionality, and vulnerability in your relationships. And so we’ve done a lot of work. The seven years that my firm has been in existence around us. It’s the consulting we do with CEO, senior executives, and high potentials and organizations.

[00:02:58.980] – Marcia
Wow. So obviously this topic is near and dear to you. Is there some personal reason why emotional intelligence, relational intelligence is so important to you?

[00:03:13.010] – Adam
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think relationships are everything in life. I think we learn the most from our relationships. I think people who are the most successful in any area of life are life long learners. And if you are consistently learning about how to build better relationships, it’ll help you with your spouse, it will help you with your children, it’ll help you with your friends, your professional colleagues. And so relationships are really everything. And now I’ve been passionate about my own relationships personally and professionally, all the different aspects that go into how to build a successful relationship. And so what I’ve seen in the work that we do is that the leaders who practice these behaviors really unlock dynamic relationships and partnerships with both internal and external stakeholders in their organization.

[00:03:53.750] – Marcia
So let’s get into the book a little bit, because you say that there are skills involved with relational intelligence. You talk about five skills. You want to just kind of go through them quickly.

[00:04:04.540] – Adam
Yes, absolutely. So the first skill is establishing rapport, and this is the ability to use energy to create an initial positive connection with other people. When I talk about energy, it’s about the excitement and enthusiasm that you bring to conversations. So things like making a good first impression, drawing others into a conversation, the choice of words that you use. Words are powerful. We can engage people and draw them in with words, and we can push them away by the things that we say. We’re firm believers here at the firm that it’s not what you’re communicating to people, it’s how you communicate it. So establishing rapport is very critical. The second skill is understanding others. And this is the ability to be intentional about putting in the time and effort needed to get to know someone on a deep level. This is where your EQ matters, because emotional intelligence, that’s defined as understanding your emotions, the emotions of others, and how to manage emotions effectively. And so if you don’t have good EQ, you can’t understand people, but it goes a step further. It’s about active listening skills. Are you actually listening to respond, or are you listening just to get your point across?

[00:05:05.620] – Adam
Curiosity and inquisitiveness is a really powerful piece of understanding others. People who show up more curious and want to learn about things usually garner insights and perspectives from other people more easily. And then it’s about empathy and compassion. Can you put yourself in someone else’s shoes as you’re getting to know their story and their history? If you practice those two skills, you move to the third skill, which is embracing individual differences. And this is the ability to be authentic and acknowledging and accepting that everyone comes from different backgrounds and experiences. And so authenticity is the piece here. This is about understanding racial ethnic diversity. It’s understanding the differences between men and women. It’s being open to people’s sexual orientation and cross cultural factors, spirituality and religion, diversity of neurodiversity. And so all the aspects that make us unique tie into people being accepting of others and the differences that we have. And it’s really about striving for diversity of thought. Do you want people around you who think differently? And what our research has found is that leads to better problem solving, creativity and innovation. The fourth skill, which is the most important relational intelligence skill, is developing trust.

[00:06:12.600] – Adam
And this is the ability to be vulnerable and risk being exposed to the actions and behaviors of others. And so to do this, I talk about it in the book. You first have to know yourself. You have to understand how you’re wired, what makes you tick, what are your values, strengths and beliefs. Because if you don’t know those things, you really can’t build trust with people. Then there are the underlying aspects of trust. We call them the five CS. Can I trust in an organizational setting that you’re competent and you’re going to perform your job? Can I trust that you’ll honor or commitments that you make to me and others? Can I trust that you’ll be consistent in how you show up day in and day out? Can I trust that you have good character? Do you have high ethics and strong integrity? And then can I trust that you have courage? Will you say the things that need to be said rather than what people want to hear on the issues that matter most? The other piece that’s tied in with developing trust is this idea we call intentional generosity. People who build great trust are intentionally generous with their time, how they sow use the farmer’s analogy, how they sow into the lives of people.

[00:07:09.930] – Adam
And they’re not looking for reciprocity. They’re looking just to contribute to other people’s lives. And then the fifth and final skill is the most powerful skill in our framework. This is cultivating influence. And this is the ability to have a positive and meaningful impact on the lives of others. For most of us growing up and going through our educational work histories, influence is about getting people to do what we want them to do or getting to our goals or objectives. We look at it here at the firm in a different way. It’s about being a servant leader. It’s about being a good mentor and a coach and providing consistent feedback for people. And so leaders who are relationally, intelligent and cultivate influence, they want to bring the best out of others.

[00:07:49.180] – Marcia
So I like this topic of cultivating influence because there’s a dark side to that, right? And you were talking about when you were talking about emotional intelligence, how it can be used to manipulate other people and to scare them into doing things that are irrational. And so here’s you’re talking about cultivating influence. And when I was looking at that, I was thinking you can cultivate influence in a positive way, like you said, but you can also cultivate influence in a nefarious way, in a tricky way. So how do you know when you’re cultivating influence in a positive way as opposed to being unconsciously, manipulative or underhanded?

[00:08:30.990] – Adam
Yeah, so cultivating influence is about being a servant leader. It’s about serving people. So it’s about putting the needs of others before yourself. People can very quickly tell if someone’s self serving or they’re machiavellian or their narcissistic. So you can usually find out those types of people will get short term goals or get their short term objectives accomplished, but they won’t build strong relationships over time.

[00:08:50.810] – Marcia
I’m going to play devil’s advocate with you for a little bit. Okay? So we’re talking about our current political or your current political situation in the United States. And I’m seeing that a lot of these machiavellian people who are maintaining and they’re getting their way and they’re even encouraging people to go and attack their so called enemies. Right? So how do you explain that? Because you’re saying that they get their short term goals and people see through them, but it doesn’t seem that people are seeing through some of these politicians and in fact, they’re gaining followers.

[00:09:24.520] – Adam
Yeah, I think politics is a touchy subject to think around. I mean, you look at our last president, Donald Trump, he got into the White House through his network and his connections and the people that follow him, but it didn’t last the last four years. And then a different president came into power in the United States. And so I think same thing. It goes back to this principle. If you know the intentions of someone relationally, intelligent leaders are authentic and intentional. And so if you know someone’s being authentic, they’re being their true self. They’re showing that they care about other people. And again, you’re going to have people who always have different views and beliefs and that’s okay. But what we have found in our research, at least in organizational context, I’m not sure about politics, is that leaders were the most successful or CEOs were the most successful. They do that and they invest in people’s relationships over time.

[00:10:10.290] – Marcia
So I was listening to a TED Talk the other day about incivility. It was really interesting because it was about how incivility and seeing how politeness, kindness and the kinds of values you’re talking about are actually much more successful in encouraging people to do their best. And contempt and criticism and undermining are actually not getting people to do their best at work. In fact, people do worse and some of them even like a certain percentage will even quit in an environment of incivility. So I thought that was very interesting.

[00:10:47.890] – Adam
Yeah, very fascinating. We’re seeing in the United States this last year, the great resignation. And there’s a famous saying people don’t quit jobs, they quit their bosses. And what our research has found is leaders who practice relational intelligence garner more engagement, loyalty and commitment from their people because their people know that the leaders are invested in them. They know that they actually care about them. Ajay banga, who is a former CEO of Mastercard, he talked about the decency quotient. It’s showing empathy for people and genuinely caring about them and caring about their physical, mental and emotional wellbeing in the United States the last year or two since COVID people are talking about mental health awareness much more often in organizational context. And that’s a degree of empathy and compassion that we haven’t seen before.

[00:11:30.410] – Marcia
Absolutely. I just remember the name of the woman. It’s Christine Porath. She’s the one who’s doing research on incivility. If anybody is interested in checking her out, or if you are, you could even have an interesting conversation with her. I was thinking about these leaders, right? And over the years as a psychotherapist, I’ve had so many conversations with patients about their workplace because that’s one of the big topics. They talk about their personal life and they talk about their workplace. And so many people have talked to me about there’s kind of two kinds of bad bosses. One is the laisse faire boss who just doesn’t want to deal with the difficult people in the workplace. And so the problem is fester and then the staff gets really frustrated and they feel abandoned. And the other one is the one who’s a bully, right. And who thinks that by micromanaging and by controlling and by undermining or criticizing, that’s how they’re going to get the work done. And actually overarching that. There’s this kind of organizational thing where the organization does not see the workers as humans, but they see them as just cogs in the system that they could just kind of use until they suck all the life out of them.

[00:12:43.670] – Marcia
So how do you reconcile the different kinds of leaders? Where do these people come from? Like the ones who can’t see their workers as humans with real needs and feelings. The ones who think that critical and micromanaging style is appropriate versus the ones who just don’t want to do anything because it’s just too much for them?

[00:13:04.910] – Adam
Yeah. So there’s a number of different factors. First, at a high level, kind of macro level, there’s generational differences. So baby Boomers and Gen X leaders kind of grew up in a system where authoritative leadership was valued. Top down leadership was valued, kind of you do what I say because you’re my employee. Even the words that leaders use from those two generations my subordinates, not my direct reports. And so I think that’s at a macro level and then you go down to a lower level, it’s about genuinely caring about your people, leaders in the past have you get paid and that’s all you need to have, job fulfillment and satisfaction. You look at Millennials and Gen Zs, they value more than just compensation, pay, promotions. They want to feel a sense of purpose in the work that they do. Does it mean something more than just the widgets they’re making? Are they contributing to society in a broader way? You look at things like global warming and some of the other things that we’re facing as a country and as a world. People think and care about things that are different now. And then you just look at COVID the last two years, the things that matter to them.

[00:14:05.580] – Adam
People had to reevaluate their lives. And so a lot of people are now thinking about what is the meaning of what I’m doing and do I contribute beyond just the day to day? And so I think leaders that have thrived, that we’ve seen, they’re able to adapt and adjust. The leaders who are more top down, authoritative, traditional type of leaders, they’re not working these nowadays. They’re not having an impact that they need to. And that’s why so many people are leaving their jobs.

[00:14:29.790] – Adam
I’m thinking more authoritarian versus authoritative, right? They’re like more like bullies. But I’m wondering about these leaders and their own stress because sometimes I think that stress can dehumanize you. These bosses who forget that they’re human beings who are working for them and they treat them like cogs, who are making widgets without any needs or feelings. The people come to me because I do these assessments for long and short term disability and these people say I’ve burnt out at work because they just drove me so hard that I can’t anymore, I just can’t function and I’m completely depressed and incapacitated. So I think these authoritarian bosses, their own stress has made them dehumanized. And then on the other hand, the ones who are laisse faire, their stress has just made them overwhelmed and so they just don’t deal, right? And then the ones who are angry and critical, their stress has just made them take out their bad mood on other people, right?

[00:15:32.970] – Adam
I think there’s a fourth kind of leader. The people who are the certain leaders and genuinely care about people when they experience stress. If they’ve invested in the relationships, they can get more done through others because they look at things from a collaborative, team based standpoint.

[00:15:46.670] – Marcia
That’s a really interesting concept, collaboration. Because over the years, talking to people and especially doing a lot of short term disability psychiatric assessments, I haven’t seen much in the way of a collaborative atmosphere. And that’s probably why these people are off work. So how do you get organizations and bosses to see the benefit of a collaborative workplace?

[00:16:13.980] – Adam
It goes back to what I talked about with developing trust and knowing thyself. We call it the mirror test in the book. And so if you’re really going to build great relationships or build collaborative partnerships. You really have to know how you’re wired. And what that includes is what are your values, what are the most important things to you as a leader? What do you look like on your best days? What are your strengths, what do you do well? And then what do you look like on the bad and ugly days when you’re under stress or pressure and really getting clear about that? Whether that’s working with the cycle therapist like yourself, working with an executive coach like me, but really doing the hard work on yourself that a lot of people don’t like to do. That for being vulnerable or just not having the self awareness. If leaders do that, the great leaders that we work with complement their skills and their kind of assets with people around them who have skills where they don’t. I look at my own firm. I have people on my team who are skilled in data and analytics, which I know a little about, but I’m not skilled in.

[00:17:07.340] – Adam
I have other people who are training and development professionals and I have a little knowledge there, but not a great depth. And so I’ve been able to complement myself with employees who have these skills. And when stress does come, I trust and leverage them because of the relationships I’ve built with them, for them to kind of perform where maybe I may be struggling or having a bad day. So it’s really, like I said, three things know yourself, kind of get clear on values, strengths, blind spots. It’s surrounding yourself with the people who complement your leadership, and then it’s having the trust to delegate and to let people feel empowered to perform in order to manage through the difficult times.

[00:17:42.240] – Marcia
Yeah, well, I want to get back to this concept of vulnerability, because you talk about that, but when I think of the typical boss, vulnerability is the last thing I would think about because bosses, especially like you say, the older generations, tend to want to look very invulnerable, impenetrable. They want to look hyper competent and hyper confident, and they would never dream of demonstrating any kind of vulnerability to the workers. So how does somebody in that role embrace this concept that is so terrifying, of vulnerability, of being imperfect and possibly fallible?

[00:18:28.700] – Adam
Yeah, I think it goes back to this idea of authenticity, at least in the US. Since 2020, with social justice, employees want to be around leaders who really can embrace all aspects of who they are. I’ll give you a fun example, and I don’t know if your audience can view us for listening to us, but I have a wall of sneakers behind me.

[00:18:46.460] – Marcia
Yeah, I see them.

[00:18:47.990] – Adam
Three or four years ago, I would have been completely embarrassed to show my clients that I have 200 pairs of shoes behind me. But I’m a sneakerhead. I collect sneakers. And so in talking with my team. They’re like, that’s an aspect of you that is part of your identity. Why wouldn’t you want to share that with the world? It’s probably the thing clients know the best about me or the most about me is, he’s a shoe guy? Said they only know what I do, but he’s a shoe guy. I want to talk to the shoe guy. And so it’s simple example just to speak to. Like when you get comfortable with yourself, you can share things that maybe you would be afraid to or intimidated to. And it’s in those moments of sharing lessons learned from a setback or failure or sharing aspects of your leadership style that maybe you want to improve or develop, that it models trust. We’re firm believers here. The traditional sense is trust must be earned. I need to earn your trust. We flip that on its head and we say, trust must be given, not earned. And the way to extend trust is to show that vulnerability.

[00:19:40.330] – Marcia
So I’m going to put it to you for our listeners. Is there a setback or a failure or a challenge that you’d like to share that you learned something important from?

[00:19:51.460] – Adam
Yeah, absolutely. So in my early twenties, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And when I was diagnosed, they talk about physicians and healthcare professionals not having bedside manner. And it was during my doctoral program. And so at the time I was a typical 25 year old, arrogant, self centered thought the world revolved around me. And so the idea of a doctoral psychology student having a psychological disorder was completely foreign to me. So I rejected the diagnosis. And for the next eight or nine years I lived in denial that led to a substance abuse addiction. And it wasn’t until I landed in rehab that I understood and gained some humility. I joke with my colleagues and I learned more from people in rehab about compassion and about empathy and about perseverance than I did in any class in graduate school about emotional intelligence or about leadership. And so for me that was a big lesson learned. The vulnerability was something that I had to learn that like, okay, you have setbacks and adversity that everyone faces in life and to go through that process of growth and self development. I’ve been in therapy now for 15 years and I think therapy is anything you want to make of it.

[00:20:59.220] – Adam
It’s not about being damaged or broken. It’s not about having problems or issues. It’s about going to an external thought partner be that a psychotherapist, a social therapist, executive coach, a life coach, and just trying to get someone to give you insights and ideas about how you can get better. And so that was kind of one of the things. I’ve been on a journey the last three years. Probably three years ago, I wouldn’t even be vulnerable enough to share the mental health piece or aspects of my journey that were considered setbacks or failures, but it’s become a major social cause for my firm and what we do. I think every person has some mental health challenges they face in their life, or they have someone in their family who does. And so I want and I hope that my team can start to eradicate the stigma that is around mental health, especially in the business world. You think about sports now in the US. Athletes like Simone Biles and Naomi Osaka. There’s other professional PJ golfers. Oprah and Prince Harry did a show a couple of years ago, the need that you don’t see. So mental health is talked about more.

[00:21:55.680] – Adam
But that was something, personally, for me, that was a journey and something that I now share with my employees, my clients, to kind of know what vulnerability looks like in action.

[00:22:04.310] – Marcia
Yeah, that’s really important. I’m glad you shared that, because I think that when you see someone who’s successful and who seems to be doing well in their life and seems happy and has a cool, sneaker collection and they’re talking about their own mental health journey, it destigmatizes, it normalizes. It and I think it makes people feel, like, less shame and less kind of like there’s something defective or bad or wrong about them. And I agree. Like psychotherapy. For me, as a practitioner, with every patient of mine, it’s a different kind of a thing. Some of them, we go very deep into their past trauma. Some of them, we do problem solving. It’s what they’re looking for, and I’m happy to tailor it to their needs because it’s not a one size fits all experience, even with a single practitioner. Right?

[00:22:57.240] – Adam
Yeah. Same thing as an executive coach. It’s not a one size fits all approach. And I’ll joke with my clients. There’s differences between an executive coach and a trusted advisor. An executive coach comes in and helps a leader fix a problem or a challenge. I have to work on my conflict management skills, or I have to work on being more empathetic, where a trusted advisor is someone who is an external thought partner that gets in the boat with you and solves problems, and they’re a resource to you that you can reach out to whenever there’s a challenge or something. So it’s not just about fixing something. It’s about the growth journey and how you can become the best version of yourself.

[00:23:28.610] – Marcia
Sure. Because when you’re just solving problems, it’s kind of like bandaids, right. Whereas if you get in the boat and you’re really looking at what’s the underlying set of issues that might really need to be looked at, then you can prevent problems rather than just always be putting out fires.

[00:23:47.870] – Adam
Yeah. I’m a firm believer in the 80 20 rule. You should focus 80% of your time on what you do. Well, there’s the blind spots you have to be mindful of and have the awareness of but focus on what you do.

[00:23:57.070] – Marcia
Well, sounds really nice. Well, I wanted to ask you, like, is there a new project? You have this wonderful book and is there a new project that you’re pursuing these days?

[00:24:09.470] – Adam
It’s two projects that are related to the book. So my team has developed our Relational Intelligence test. So in January you’ll be able to take our assessment. You can go to our website bandelionassociates.com and figure out what your relational intelligence is. And we are also developing, we finished this year our two day Immersive training experience, our leadership retreat on relational intelligence called the Relational Intelligence Experience. And this is where CEOs and senior teams come together to learn the five skills, put them into practice through simulated exercises that we do with the teams how to develop trust, how to understand others. Those are two of the big projects that we’re working on that will take us into next year. And then another piece is we’re doing our roadshow across different conferences, the Society for Human Resource Management, the American Psychological Association about what relational intelligence is and bringing it to our business community.

[00:24:58.370] – Marcia
Wow, so you’re not busy at all these days. That sounds wonderful. So where can people find you if they’re looking to learn more about relational intelligence and the work that you do?

[00:25:12.280] – Adam
Yeah, if you go to our website, Bandelli and Associates that’s Bandelli andandassociates.com you’ll find a ton of information on our relational intelligence page, your listeners can also follow me on Instagram at Adam Bandelli, or on LinkedIn and Twitter with the same handle.

[00:25:26.930] – Marcia
Wonderful. So just before we wrap up, I was thinking it would be nice for you to offer a call to action to the listeners, something that they might want to think about or try doing moving forward.

[00:25:38.700] – Adam
It’s funny you say that. The last chapter of the book is called The Call to Action. And what I firmly believe is that if people want to build dynamic relationships across all areas of their life, they need to be authentic and intentional in doing it. And if you are intentional in how you build relationships and the method that you do that is being authentic, you’ll build transformational relationships across your life.

[00:25:58.660] – Marcia
Okay, well, that sounds like a good thought for the day. Thank you so much, Dr. Adam Vandelli, for coming on the Ruthless Compassion podcast. It was really edifying talking with you today.

[00:26:11.190] – Adam
This is great. Thank you so much for your time.

[00:26:14.370] – Marcia
This is Dr Dr. Marcia, Sirota. Thank you for listening. Please leave a review and your comments wherever you listen to podcasts. And don’t forget to sign up for my free newsletter@marciasirotamd.com where you’ll learn about.

[00:26:27.680] – Adam
Upcoming online events as well.

[00:26:29.610] – Marcia
Also, we love getting referrals from our listeners about future podcast guests, so please email us at info@marciasrotemd.com.