Full Transcript

[00:00:19.970] – Marcia
Welcome, David Sax, to the Ruthless Compassion podcast.

[00:00:22.910] – David
Again, good to be back back here, Marcia. Thank you.

[00:00:26.810] – Marcia
My pleasure. So you’ve come back with a new book called the Future Is Analog: How to Create a More Human World. And I was asking you just before we started taping why you wrote it, so maybe you’ll say a couple of words about that.

[00:00:41.230] – David
Yeah, this book was a response to two things. One, the situation I was sort of living through during the pandemic, 2020 and early 2021, as it related to how much digital technology I was using. And it was sort of doing everything in my life through a screen at many points of that time, and what it was revealing about the sort of deeper value of the non digital analog things that I kind of had to leave behind. And the other was questions I was getting in interviews and media and other places that it was coming from about what this experience meant about the future. That now that we were sort of in the new normal of remote work and virtual school and online shopping and so forth and there was this assumption that there was no returning back to what was before. What did this mean for sort of the analog things that I had been writing about champion, whether it was brick and mortar shops or schools or physical logic like final records and board games and so forth, what does this mean that those things were vanishing because everything was sort of going digital?

[00:01:57.920] – David
And this was not my kind of response against that somewhat ridiculous question.

[00:02:03.910] – Marcia
Yeah, well, it’s funny that the expression, be careful what you wish for, popped into my mind. And here we are. We were all wishing for this great digital era where everything was going to be online and it was going to be so amazing. And then it happened with a vengeance.

[00:02:24.030] – David
There’s nothing I would love more than sit at home and work in my sweatpants and have Pad Thai brought to me. Wouldn’t that be a dream? And then you’re like, well, here you go. You can never leave your house, but here you go. All the Netflix you can watch.

[00:02:37.960] – Marcia
You have obviously done some research. You’ve interviewed people, and obviously we all have reactions to this constant, constant being on a screen. But what have you discovered through your interviews, through your research about, you know, what it feels like, what it means to constantly be plugged in?

[00:02:59.690] – David
Interesting. Well, I think the thing we all raised very quickly and the research sort of began to bear this out. And I had been doing this for years prior to the pandemic, is that humans have bodies. We’re not computers, we’re not virtual beings, we’re not pieces of data. And those bodies have limits and needs. Right. We have the need to utilize our physical senses that we’ve evolved to navigate our way through the world with. Our eyes need to see beyond this flat piece of glass that I’m staring at and then the other flat piece of glass that I could look at, right. Our ears need to hear in a textured way beyond just what you can sort of plug into the member come on through a speaker. Our fingers need to touch and our feet need to touch different things in order to gain information. Our limbs and our bodies need to move through space and not just sit in one place. And this is sort of something I think we took for granted, that these were problems that needed to be solved or disrupted. But what we found when we removed all those sensory experiences, when we removed our bodies from the equation, was that we were tremendously unhappy and unfulfilled.

[00:04:24.650] – David
I mean, the term burnout was something that came very quickly in the spring of 2020. And I think a lot of that can be traced back to the fact that we were not using our bodies, we were not using our full capabilities as humans in the day to day activities that we previously would have done. By walking or taking the bus or driving to go to work, by walking through a grocery store, by meeting people and having conversations, we could simulate many of these actions online. But it wasn’t the same, right? It’s the peloton bike riding in front of the screen versus getting out and riding on the road. It’s the difference between online school and virtual school. Right. And the insufficiency of that for our daily human experience became very apparent very quickly.

[00:05:23.620] – Marcia
Yeah. You were saying something which in the book which reminded me of something I had been thinking about, which is that we have all these spontaneous kind of interactions with people, these casual interactions which are not with friends or loved ones or with people that were close to, but they’re these very brief but very positive interactions with people. And all the spontaneity was gone, right? So all of our interactions had to be planned and organized and scheduled and choreographed, as opposed to just having these, like, spontaneous experiences. And it brought me back to a memory of traveling, because I spent quite a few years doing some very intensive global traveling, doing my bucket list of traveling. And one of the things that I always noticed when I traveled was how free I felt because my time was very unstructured and we could just do whatever we wanted and just be very free and loose, and things would just magically happen. People would appear, events would appear, experiences would arise, and all of this incredibly spontaneous flowing would happen. And I was so happy and fulfilled during those experiences. And it wasn’t just because I was in a new place having new experiences.

[00:06:46.620] – Marcia
It was all that flow, the flow experience. And being in this technology, I think it kills all the flow. Does that make sense to you?

[00:06:55.270] – David
Yeah, it’s a really poignant way to put your finger on the thing that I think we kind of came to the realization of, right? Which is that software does not do well with spontaneity, right? Because it requires rules and structures based around whatever activities are doing. So let’s talk about conversation channel, like Slack, which is a platform people use for conversation, or perhaps something like Twitter, whatever, right? These are sort of platforms for different types of conversation, text conversation, voice conversation, and so on. Zoom is another good one. It only works when both parties are sort of agreeing upon the set rules of engagement, so to speak, and things are happening within the confines of that platform. The best example, your sort of travel one is a great one. I mean, the best example that I like to say, and I have been doing this in the talks lately, is I’m going to tell you the three scariest words in the English language to come out of the pandemic besides the medical stuff. Zoom cocktail party. Right? And I say in the talks, I’m like, if I paid you $25, who would attend a 1 hour long cocktail party?

[00:08:18.500] – David
And maybe one person on cheapskate put it $50. People will be like, $100? Be like, all right, I just got $100. I enter it. But that experience, the boredom of that experience, is so perfectly encapsulated everything that is lost when we are analog world. Right? Because what is the cocktail party? It is a space, a room, backyard or whatever, and a bunch of people and some drinks, ideally, maybe some food, maybe some music. And like, that’s it. There’s no set plan. The spontaneity of the encounter is just left up to our evolutionary way of communicating and living as humans. And that, unfortunately, just can’t happen in a limited, I don’t know, four square inch, 20 square inch flat piece of glass, right? I think that it’s funny. People ask me, what’s the most surprising thing you learn? I think the most surprising thing I learned is that people were shocked when this stuff didn’t work. They’re like, I don’t know, just a Zoom cocktail party. And it just sucks. Why? Why are we shocked about this? The failure of online school, which happens all over the world, every grade school, no success stories from it.

[00:09:55.950] – David
And it has been known, and people have tried to expense this year and failures across the board like, oh, why didn’t that work? We have the best teachers and the best minds and best technology. Harvard and MIT and fancy private schools. Near and it’s like, why did the entirety of the school experience condensed into this green not equal what it was in real life. How are we shocked about this?

[00:10:22.010] – Marcia
I think people are missing the obvious, like they’re missing the forest for the trees, which is that it’s not just about read this, study this, regurgitate this on a test or an essay. And that’s school. School is social. The whole point of school, from nursery school to postgraduate medical school, residency, it’s all social. So much of it is the social experience.

[00:10:48.720] – David
And the social experience people say, well, we have social media, we have social. You can be social online. You can communicate with people all over the world and do things. But as you know, as a psychiatrist, right, when we talk about social, it’s not just the information that we can turn into text and video and sound. It’s all the other things. When you see a patient and they come into your office and sit down on your team’s chair or whatever, what I imagine, I’m sure things that they are saying, that is the context of it. But there’s also their body language, how they’re communicating with you non verbally, everything you’ve sort of had in the interactions with them, even before they come in. So I think because we were able to take and we’ve been able to take many pieces of information about the world and transfer it digitally in a very fast and efficient way, we’ve sort of made the assumption and I think many people in Silicon Valley and the technology industry have made it the goal to synthesize and capture the rest of that information. And that if we could just get enough information and put it through this pipe here, the pipe of the Internet, then that’s great.

[00:12:06.420] – David
And I think this is the goal of Mark Zuckerberg new shift, the metaverse, right? It’s like just going to strap the things on, goggles on your face, and this is it. We’ll be able to capture all the rest of the stuff, the body language and whatever.

[00:12:21.580] – Marcia
It’s not true

[00:12:22.580] – Marcia
But it’s missing all the details missing. When we talk about the trees, a forest isn’t just trees. I was hiking, I was in Booker last week in Oregon, and I went for a hike in Portland, Oregon, which is a city that is gorgeous park. There’s one little park on Washington Park, kind of towers above the city. It just rained. So it’s like the misty Oregon, and it’s like the sound of the water dripping and the feel of the moss and the smell of all those needles and trees and leaves decaying and the crunch on the path and all of that. Is that’s the experience?

[00:13:11.150] – Marcia
So what you’re saying is there’s no layers. There’s no layers because in real life, there are so many layers of experience, right? There’s like you’re saying the sound and the smell and the feel and the various different sites, the foreground, the background, the mid ground, right? The many different things that you’re hearing all at the same time. And it’s all coming together like this big soup, right? And in electronic technology, there’s so little there’s no layers, there’s so little content. And it’s exhausting because you don’t have anything to kind of it’s like a very thin broth with just one ingredient.

[00:13:49.460] – David
And it’s like the same ingredient, the north cube in the water, right?

[00:13:54.780] – Marcia
Yeah. With the same flavor over and over, which is fine.

[00:13:59.230] – David
I mean, it’s okay. My daughter loves herself a packet of Ramen. I liked when I was a kid growing up and getting the Lipton cup of cup of soup, stir that crap thing, and she’s like, you know, I want my matza ball soup. And I was like, I want this stuff. I want that salty brine. But yeah, exactly right. It is the infinite texture of the real analog world and everything within it, the physical aspects of it, the social aspects of it, all of that richness I think what the pandemic did is by taking it away and giving us the digital substitute, whether it was shopping, socializing, praying, exercising, learning, working, even the way we would entertain ourselves or interact with the city, we very quickly saw that the signal was weak.

[00:15:04.930] – Marcia
Yeah. It wasn’t fulfilling. And people talked about Zoom fatigue, right? I mean, that’s a new word from the pandemic, right? Zoom fatigue. And it was real. It’s like the other day, my accountant wanted to talk to me about my year end, and he said, we’ll do, like, a meeting, right? We’ll do an online meeting. I said, no, let’s just talk by the phone. I can’t do any more of these online in person meetings just to talk about numbers. No, let’s just do it by phone. It’s just not fulfilling in the way that interpersonal, face to face relationships are. And it’s exhausting in a way that interpersonal face to face relationships aren’t. You’re not ever going to be tired having a chat with the checkout clerk at the grocery store? It’ll be like, oh, that was nice, but five minutes with my accountant on a meeting, it’s like, no, you’re poor. No, he understood. He’s very sweet.

[00:16:08.250] – David
Yeah. Again, it’s this deeper human need. And I think this is the thing that I talk about. People say, well, what about the the future? There’s going to be better technology, new technology. And I say, of course that better technology is coming. The new technology is coming. AI, whatever, right? But we are analog creatures, and that’s going to be true in the future, too, hopefully 20 years and 50 years and 100 years beyond, until we’re drowning ourselves in extinction with climate change. We are physical creatures, just like your cat.

[00:16:45.650] – Marcia
There’s no cat.

[00:16:53.170] – David
And as long as that’s true, those needs are going to remain, right? Those deeper human needs. And I think what you see now is really interesting, because there was this assumption early in the middle of 2020 that this was the sort of irreversible shift toward a more digital lifestyle. People are not going to return to office. That was over. Many of these things would become permanent. Look how much online shopping grown. Look how much grocery grocery shopping you’ve grown. Look how much people are streaming concerts and things online. This was the new way we were going to live. And what you’ve actually seen in the past year or so is all the fortunes of those companies. Zoom, Amazon, Shopify, Peloton. They’ve all declined. Their sales are way down. Their numbers are going back to where they were at the beginning of the pandemic in terms of the number of people that are using them for sales. And that’s because people are looking at a Peloton bike in their basement and they’re looking at their bicycle in their garage in the world outside. That’s a nice tangle to go outside.

[00:17:58.330] – Marcia
Yeah. No, it’s true. Having all this I would use the word sterile, this kind of sterile technology is keeping us from the messy, spontaneous, unpredictable, multilayered aspects of normal human existence. And people were starving, I think, through the pandemic, which I think is why everyone was doing so much baking. I think we were emotionally starving. And so we were feeding our bodies because we couldn’t feed our spirit, our being. But once we could, so many people returned and even turned for the first time to things that they had never really appreciated before. I started walking during the pandemic. I had always gone for a walk here or there, but I started walking every day, and it’s like a new passion of mine. And I never would have done that except I needed to get outside and just walk around and see whatever was out there. And sometimes it was just noisy construction, and sometimes it was beautiful trees, sometimes it was cute pets. Whatever it was, it was good, right? Because it was alive. There was an aliveness. There was not a sterility to it. And I think that what Mark Zuckerberg is trying to do, is he’s trying to sterilize life.

[00:19:27.930] – Marcia
And it’s frightening to me. It’s actually out of a bad horror Sci-Fi novel,

[00:19:36.960] – David
But not a good one, a bad one. I mean, I think that the heartening thing is despite the billions of dollars that he’s poured into this, no one’s signing up. Anyone who’s getting the test for the journalists and other people are like, yeah, I went on there. There was no one there. It was a ghost town.

[00:19:56.150] – Marcia
Good.

[00:19:56.830] – David
And I think that’s because it holds such limited, there’s an entertainment appeal, there’s a curiosity appeal. But as a venue for the way we’re going to conduct our lives in the future, it’s a very limited appeal. I think that’s the blessing of the past couple of years is that it gave us this immersion or test drive into this promise digital future. And the majority of us yeah, the majority of us are, like, not going back to do certain activities online. Some people like, I’m great happy with online shopping hour. I don’t want to drive back down to an office that’s an hour away, certain things. But for the most part, we’ve elected for analog reality and all of it, as you said, worth and all right. And I find that interesting because you’re a psychiatrist. So one of the things I’ve heard a lot over the past while I’ve been doing this, what about introverts?

[00:21:00.810] – David
What about people who, for example, in the office world, there were tremendous inequalities between the people who may have held power in office, usually white males and women, people of color, other disadvantaged groups. So doesn’t this putting work online make it better? Isn’t that sort of a solution? And I always said, well, for introverts, for people who are shy, for people who are disadvantaged in things, isn’t the goal to make those physical spaces better? If someone’s an introvert, do you give them the tools just to remain an introvert in their house? Or do you work with them to come out into the world and find comfort in it and find ways to relate with it?

[00:21:53.110] – Marcia
Well, and here’s the thing. Introverts aren’t people who don’t like being around people. Introverts are just people who need a certain amount of time to recharge their batteries on their own. I would say the people who really enjoyed the pandemic, because some of them were my patients, were those who were on the autism spectrum, and they really felt like, okay, the pressure is off. And they could just for them, that sterile environment was very comforting and soothing because they don’t like the stimulation, they don’t like the distraction. They like just one thing to focus on at a time. So for a lot of people on the spectrum, it was a relief. But for everyone else, I think the messy, dirty, complicated, unpredictable, spontaneous flowy kind of reality was much more satisfying. And we missed it. And we might not have known that we missed it, but we missed it. And as soon as it was available to us again, without even consciously seeking it out, we ran. We didn’t walk. We ran in droves for it. How people are running away from a volcanic eruption in the movies. That’s how fast people were running toward whatever real life experiences they could have.

[00:23:08.750] – David
Eaten on a patio. What if we open going to a store when stores reopen all these activities and even things that you could order all your groceries online, and they came pretty quick, and the price wasn’t that different. I don’t know. Get me back to a No Frills was kind of the way I was feeling because listeners got me.

[00:23:31.510] – Marcia
Yeah, I want to go and look at the broccoli up close and like avocado. I want to squeeze it.

[00:23:36.790] – David
Yeah, I can’t trust an avocado that.

[00:23:39.130] – Marcia
You touch and touch, right? You can’t touch and you can’t smell. And those senses. They’re deep and kind of more primitive senses that are connected to memory, they’re connected to emotions. The hippocampus is the part of our brain that’s connected to memory and senses, and it’s right next to our olfactory center. So what we smell brings up feelings and memories. And if we can’t smell anything, it’s sterile, right? If we can’t touch it, it’s sterile. So, yeah, I missed that part of the pandemic. It’s just being able to touch and feel and smell things, like a human being, like an animal that we are. Right?

[00:24:25.020] – David
Right. And I think that’s it. On the one hand, the digital future kind of promises this perfectionism through technology and deals with the flaws, the messy part, right? Cleans them up. But the messy parts are all we have.

[00:24:43.530] – Marcia
That’s the good stuff.

[00:24:44.970] – David
That’s life.

[00:24:46.330] – Marcia
Yeah, that’s the good stuff. And I think that’s the mistake that these gurus are making, these tech gurus are making is that people want us to get rid of all those things that actually give soul to life, right? All the things, all the dirt, all the mess, the shadow, like, in our personalities. My patients come to me and they say, I want to be perfect. And I go, no. First of all, it’s not possible. Second of all, it’s not necessary. Third of all, it takes all the fun away from life. You want to have the dark stuff. You don’t want to necessarily just give it free reign, but it informs you. It makes you passionate. It makes you persistent. It makes you powerful. Like, you want that dark part. You want the dirty parts. You want the messy parts. Obviously, you have to live in society with other people and other creatures and not be a sociopath. But the darkness is not a bad thing. It’s just a different flavor. There’s no bad energy. There’s no bad smells. There’s no bad feelings. Right? We have to integrate all of it. And when they try to take away all that dirty stuff, as a psychiatrist, I’m horrified, because they’re dehumanizing us.

[00:25:59.910] – Marcia
They’re taking away our true animal nature, which is, I think, the best part of us, and they’re making us just these, like, brains in a box, and then we won’t need our bodies again. That’s like an out of a horror movie. Right. And this is not a direction I would ever want to go in.

[00:26:17.770] – David
Yeah. And I wonder, from a psychiatric perspective, for someone who holds up as a core belief that idea that we should move beyond the body or we can continually improve and perfect. Because I think there’s that notion of this perfection is achievable or some sort of perfect state. And it’s kind of like the people who get obsessive plastic surgery. But to this sort of societal degree, I mean, what is the underlying issue there? Underlying pathology?

[00:26:56.590] – Marcia
Well, it’s an interesting question, and I think I can only guess off the top of my head. But I think some of it is like this kind of self hatred, right? This hatred of our own vulnerability fallibility, imperfection, our own shadow, sorry, darkness within us, and trying rather than trying to integrate it and make it part of the whole, we’re just trying to cut it away. It’s like people who self mutilate, like you were saying, like the proposal surgery, I think that’s a very good example because we’re like trying to cut away the parts of ourselves that we find offensive rather than claiming them, accepting them, integrating them, and finding the positive aspects of them. So to me, it’s a real rejection of everything human about us and very, very dangerous, actually, as a philosophy. And it also strikes me as slightly fascistic because anytime governments or societies sought out, quote unquote, perfection, then the first thing they started doing was rounding up and killing all of those individuals who were less than perfect.

[00:28:06.540] – David
Well, it’s interesting because Peter Thiel, the co founder of PayPal with Elon Musk, the investor and board member of Facebook, the funder of neo fascismd in Europe, there you go, elsewhere you go. Is one of the biggest proponents of transhumanism, right? This belief that our destiny lies in, one, eliminating death and living forever, and then two, merging our brains and minds with computers so that we can exist in this perpetual matrix bullshit that he’s doing while he’s funding Hungarian fashion.

[00:28:46.560] – Marcia
Yeah, I don’t know if you’ve ever watched this show called Altered Carbon. Okay. It’s on Netflix. I highly recommend season one, if they still have it. It was brilliant because it’s about a lot of things, but it’s about people who have figured out through alien technology how to live forever by basically implanting this chip in your brain. And the chip is you. So you can implant this chip in any body, which they call, I don’t know, I can’t remember, some kind of a package container. But once you’ve had this chip, you can be revived anytime you get killed. And if you are rich enough, you can clone your body and so you can have a bunch of cloned shells that you just plug the chip into, and then you can just live forever and ever. And the moral of the story is that if you can live forever, then you have no reason to have any ethics, any morals, any sense of right and wrong, because there are no consequences, because you can live forever. And so these people are doing the most horrendous atrocities and they’ve even created like clubs for these people to do these atrocities on victims who they promise eternal life to.

[00:30:02.690] – Marcia
But of course, I’m just going to.

[00:30:04.470] – David
Stick with your summary because it sounds horrifying.

[00:30:07.290] – Marcia
Watch it. And I recommend all the listeners to watch it because the point is that when you can live forever and when your fundamental humanity, which is the fact that you have a time limit, is taken away, then you’re capable of anything. And so all of these philosophies like this transhumanism and immortality, basically what they’re saying is we’re making the superman, which, again, is a fascist ideology, right? And it’s very scarily dangerous, and I think it goes along with what’s happening in our society today, which is the rise of all this highly right wing, scary propaganda. So if not to say that technology is associated with fascism at all, I don’t want anyone to have lots of.

[00:30:56.710] – David
Analog fascists going back, right?

[00:30:58.820] – Marcia
And there are lots of people who enjoy many aspects of technology who are very progressive. But I think that particular strain of thought is very dangerous, and we have to see it for what it is and recognize that when we start looking for perfection, we’re going down a very scary path.

[00:31:16.790] – David
There’s an analogy there that this kind of messianic fate, right? And I think this gets back to this question of the sort of strong belief in this inevitability of a digital future, because what is digital promise? Let’s forget about the brain, that sort of Sci-Fi stuff, but even just the everyday in business or whatever, digital promises a certainty. It works or it doesn’t. It’s very binary, and it promises to improve things and make things faster, more efficient, make more money and save you money and so on and so forth. And that’s a very appealing thing for a company or an organization or government or an individual or a family, because it gives a sense of certainty in a world where certainty is never really there other than the sun rising and paying taxes, right, and a cat interrupting his income, obviously. And that attraction of that certainty is a powerful, powerful thing. And I think when people see it questioned and they see it challenged and they see it unfulfilled, it really is a difficult thing. I know people who are very big into the sort of world of cryptocurrency and believed in it very strongly.

[00:32:40.120] – David
And beyond the financial hit, they’ve taken, like this collapse of this sort of ideology of a certain future has been really a difficult thing for them to process.

[00:32:48.860] – Marcia
Yeah, and I think you’re right. I think people look for certainty because life is very uncertain, except for you missed one thing death. So the sun rises, there are taxes, and there’s death.

[00:33:00.080] – David
No, I’ve taken the obuse.

[00:33:05.610] – Marcia
Okay, well, good for you. All right. I’ll talk to you in 300 years. Okay, but see, if you’re really happy with that.

[00:33:12.020] – David
I’ll just be at the, like, yacht club version. I’m not going to go into murder club.

[00:33:15.910] – Marcia
Okey dokey. But the I think that we are, you know, terrified of of things that are certain, and we are terrified of things that are uncertain. And we want to control, we always want to control, like humanity. Our biggest mistake is trying to control the uncontrollable. And then when we do that, we create bigger problems for ourselves. And I think that this kind of hyper technology is this desire to control the uncontrollable, and it’s uncontrollable for a reason. And when we start trying to meddle with fate, meddle with life and death, or meddle with humans and cyborgs, we’re going to create horror stories, I think.

[00:34:02.670] – David
Or be unfulfilled. Be unhappy, right?

[00:34:05.760] – Marcia
Yes. At the best, just be really unhappy and not have the life that we thought we would have. So, yeah, it’s simple little things like you were saying, like getting up for a walk or playing a board game, or talking to people in person, having your drinks party, even in the backyard if you don’t want to be indoors.

[00:34:25.260] – David
Right.

[00:34:27.110] – Marcia
And enjoy a lot of analog experiences and the messy, dirty, spontaneous and unpredictable and imperfect, but fulfilling.

[00:34:38.630] – David
Amen to that. Well, this is great. I know where you were like at the beginning of the conversation. You’re like, well, I wanted to ask about this chapter, in this chapter, and we just kind of went on a beautiful, messy, human, unplanned journey of conversation, but I can think of no one better to do it.

[00:34:57.870] – Marcia
Thank you, David. Well, listen, I’m going to say goodbye to you now because I know you have to run.

[00:35:03.100] – David
I can take a child to swim class. Is there anything more dirty and messy and banal than swim class?

[00:35:11.330] – Marcia
And beautiful and fulfilling for someone?

[00:35:14.740] – David
For the guy who owns the swimsuit, hopefully she’s a great swimmer.

[00:35:20.460] – Marcia
There you go.

[00:35:20.970] – David
That’s kind of all the matters.

[00:35:22.510] – Marcia
Thank you again. David Sachs. The future is analog, and it’s available everywhere if people are interested. And where can people find you if they’re looking to learn more about what you do?

[00:35:33.020] – David
I mean, aside from knocking on my door, which obviously we go along well with the theme of the conversation. I have a @Saxdavid.com, so you can email me there. I’m on Twitter at saxdavid if you want to contact me there, shout to the world. And that’s pretty much it. Yeah.

[00:35:48.750] – Marcia
Wonderful. All right.

[00:35:49.710] – David
Out of the world. Find me on the street. Find me at the swim school.

[00:35:56.610] – Marcia
This is Dr. Marcia, Sirota. Thank you for listening. Please leave a review and your comments wherever you listen to podcasts. And don’t forget to sign up for my free newsletter at marciasrotamd.com, where you’ll learn about upcoming online events as well.

[00:36:11.810] – Marcia
Also, we love getting referrals from our listeners about future podcast podcast guests. So please email us at info@marciasrodamd.com.