Summary:

In the podcast episode, “Ruthless Compassion,” host, Dr. Marcia Sirota interviews Celeste Yvonne, a mother and writer who shares her journey of overcoming alcohol addiction and embracing sobriety. Celeste discusses the dangerous implications of the “mommy wine culture,” where mothers are humorously portrayed as using alcohol to cope with the stresses of parenthood. She emphasizes the harmful impact of this narrative and the importance of offering genuine support to mothers facing challenges such as postpartum depression and anxiety.

Celeste also shares her experience transitioning from a blogger who created “Mommy Needs Wine” memes to leading the Sober Mom squad, a virtual community that provides support for mothers seeking sober living. She highlights the liberation and freedom she found in sobriety and encourages listeners to consider rethinking their relationship with alcohol by taking a 30-day break to gain valuable insights and experiences. Celeste’s upcoming book, “It’s Not About the Wine: The Loaded Truth Behind Mommy Wine Culture,” aims to shed light on the pressures of motherhood and the increasing trend of women turning to alcohol, offering an alternative approach to coping with stress.

Transcript:

[00:00:00.810]
Marcia: Ruthless Compassion is a podcast about how you can turn your emotional shit into fertilizer for success and see your darkest moments as opportunities to transform into a powerful, kindness warrior. If you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review wherever you listen.

[00:00:19.670]
Marcia: Welcome, Celeste Yvonne to the Ruthless Compassion Podcast.

[00:00:23.410]
Celeste: Thank you. I’m so glad to be here.

[00:00:25.530]
Marcia: Well, it’s very, very exciting to have you here because I don’t think we’ve talked about your topic on this podcast after over 140 episodes. So it’s great to have something new and fresh and important to talk about today. So with no further ado, I want you to introduce yourself and tell the listeners what you do.

[00:00:47.490]
Celeste: Sure. So I live in Moreno, Nevada. I am a mom. I have two boys, seven and nine, and I have been in corporate America for about 20 years, but as of last year, I quit my work there, and now I’m a full-time writer. And I mostly write about motherhood and sobriety. I am five and a half years sober, and it’s a big part of what I do now. I’m also a host at Sober Mom’s squad, which is a community that hosts meetings virtually. Those takes up a lot of my time, but then parenthood takes up the other part of my time. So I stay busy.

[00:01:31.030]
Marcia: So when you say that you’re writing about sobriety and you’re a mom, obviously, there’s an implication there. You want to talk about your journey to getting to where you are today.

[00:01:42.860]
Celeste: Yeah. I think when I first became a mother, I thought I would be able to drink with sophistication, moderately. And while my whole life, I’ve always been a bit of a gray area drinker, I binge drank in college and on and off throughout my 20s. There was something about motherhood that made me think I would change, that the responsibilities would empower me to have a different relationship with alcohol. And it started that way. I think I started off just sticking to one glass of wine in the evening, but over time, as my tolerance grew, my drinking increased. And I started to realize that it was very hard for me to drink the way I wanted to drink and parent the way I wanted to parent, that I could not do both. And I wound up deciding to quit about five and a half years ago. Parentine hung over. It was next to impossible. Parentine, while inebriated, had its own challenges. And the guilt and the shame that I was constantly carrying was exhausting. The mental load of alcohol was exhausting. And I found so much freedom when I quit drinking, freedom from things I didn’t even know I was carrying, like the mental load of alcohol.

[00:03:20.320]
Celeste: All this guilt that came with my alcohol use around my children, especially as a child of an alcoholic. It wasn’t something I wanted to continue. I needed to break that cycle for my children, and I’m grateful I had that opportunity to.

[00:03:42.240]
Marcia: And it’s wonderful that you were able to do that. It’s a real accomplishment.

[00:03:47.460]
Celeste: Yeah. I’m so grateful that I was able to do that for myself and my children, but also for my dad, who was an alcoholic his whole life and who was never able to become sober. I know that he’s gone now, but I know that he’s so proud of me. And I genuinely believe that he helped me get sober through his story and watching his struggle.

[00:04:16.840]
Marcia: For sure. Well, I read, there’s a lot of media about you, and I read somewhere that you were saying how motherhood has tremendous stresses, which every mother understands, but then there’s this whole little joke about mothers drinking and they laugh it off and they go, ha-ha, wine, the whole wine culture, mommy wine culture. And I thought it would be important for us to talk about this, the mommy wine culture and why women turn to alcohol, why mothers turn to alcohol in particular?

[00:04:52.210]
Celeste: Mommy wine culture is something that certainly lured me in. And I was a perpetrator of it. But I used it to justify my drinking for several years before I realized the harm it causes and the harm I was causing through that message. When I talk about what mommy wine culture is, I’m talking about that social narrative that’s playfully, joking or implying that moms need alcohol to cope with their children. So it’s not necessarily just a mother who happens to be drinking a glass of wine. When I refer to mommy wine culture, it’s specifically that narrative. And I think it’s a dangerous narrative. I think it’s a dangerous narrative for mothers. I think it’s a dangerous narrative for their children. And I don’t see it as all that harmless. I’ve had people push back on me and say, It’s just a joke. Learn to laugh. All the things. I’ve been called all the names. But the more I thought about it and the more I consider my own storymy story and my story as a child of an alcoholic, the more I realize it’s a dangerous message. It’s not the message mothers need to be hearing when they’re struggling.

[00:06:10.500]
Celeste: And it’s not the message our children need to be hearing that our parents are blaming them for the reasons they drink.

[00:06:18.690]
Marcia: Yeah. It’s not a nice message to tell your five-year-old, You’re the reason I’m drunk because you’re such a handful. You’re such a burden to me. You don’t want your kids picking up that message, and even if you’re not telling them, they’re going to intuitive it, right?

[00:06:34.600]
Celeste: I mean, subconsciously, they’re absolutely going to intuitive it. They can read the shirts. They can read the mugs. We might know if they’re a joke, but they don’t. Eventually, even when they get in on the joke subconsciously, that’s been sitting in their brain for years.

[00:06:55.820]
Marcia: And when you say read the shirts and the mugs, what are you exactly referring to? You.

[00:07:00.880]
Celeste: So Mommy Wine Culture has been around for a while, but when social media was rampant in the early 2010s and Facebook took off and most people had a Facebook profile and then Instagram followed suit, you’ve started to see these memes popping up that Mommy needs wine. I wine because my kids wine or my kids are the reason I drink. So these are the narratives I’m talking about. And they became so popular that soon before long you could find these shirts, these mugs with these same sayings on Etsy and then eventually at Target. I mean, they are everywhere. Go to any Hallmark store and you will find plentiful jokes about mommy needing her wine. It’s a very common narrative now that is hard to avoid at this point.

[00:07:55.790]
Marcia: It’s shocking, but not shocking, because anything that makes a profit will be adopted by corporate America. But it’s shocking how a mother needing to use alcohol to cope with being a parent has been normalized because obviously it shouldn’t be.

[00:08:14.390]
Celeste: And it’s such a sad message too. Anybody who is a mother can understand motherhood is hard. It’s challenging. And I think about the times where I was trying to vent to friends and they would joke about it sounds like you could use some alcohol or get this girl a glass of wine stat. That’s not a helpful message for anyone to be receiving genuinely, especially mothers in early motherhood need actual support. They probably are village-less. Most of us are in today’s day and age. We’re more likely to be struggling with postpartum depression or anxiety, and our whole lives were just upended. We’re low on sleep. We’re low on energy.uggesting wine as the solution to any of these things is irresponsible at best, but dangerous at worse.

[00:09:14.720]
Marcia: Yeah, and because it’s so funny because we all know about addiction, we all know about alcoholism, but somehow because it’s a mom and she’s drinking wine, it’s suddenly innocent. And so we can suggest wine to a mother because somehow it’s not going to affect her in the same way as alcohol would affect a guy who’s a businessman who’s drinking because he has job stress or something.

[00:09:43.130]
Celeste: It’s interesting. It’s interesting. It is. It’s interesting. I mean, when you think about it, there’s some infantilizing of the message when you see moms calling it mom juice or mommy’s sippy cup. I’ve seen that on mugs, on wine glasses, too. That tries to playfully suggest that this is also innocent, that we’re just doing what a mother’s got to do to survive.

[00:10:09.560]
Marcia: It’s funny. What just popped into my mind now is how the vaping companies flavor all the vapes with these bubblegum and candy flavors that kids like, and they make vaping seem like it’s candy. And again, it’s this toxic substance that has been rebranded as something harmless.

[00:10:33.960]
Celeste: I saw, you’re not going to believe this, I saw a beer can last year that was Capri Sun-flavoured. So same thing. And that’s smart on the alcohol industries for their market, because teenagers are future or current and future customers. So stardom young, I’m sure, is what they’re thinking.

[00:10:56.830]
Marcia: Wow. Yeah. It’s really horrifying and disappointing, but not surprising, actually, because greed seems to be pretty rampant these days, and they don’t think about the people who are behind it don’t seem to think about the consequences. So let’s get back to mothers who drink. So it seems that there’s this whole push, I guess, to encourage moms instead of finding real ways to cope with the stress of parenting, to just drink some alcohol. It’s harmless. It’s funny. It’s cute. And it seems to be like there’s a lot of people, like you said, you got pushback who don’t want to see the truth about it. What do you think that’s about?

[00:11:38.830]
Celeste: I’ve talked to people about why they dislike this narrative. And to be frank, before I quit drinking, I would have been very frustrated with somebody telling me it’s a dangerous message too. The common conversation I have with mothers who get frustrated that I’m saying it’s a dangerous narrative say, We just need to have a collective sigh. We just need something that we can all laugh about, because if we don’t laugh, we’re going to cry. It’s just something that we can make jokes about and say it to each other to recognize I see you, mama. I recognize this is hard. I know you’re in the trenches. You’ve got this. And we’ve done it with things like coffee, too. But the difference is obviously, coffee isn’t going’t going to get anyone put in jail for DUY. Nobody lose custody over their kids over drinking too much coffee. I think the effort, the intent is the same, but the implications are different. And that’s where we have to take a little bit more responsibility for the things we’re saying and the messages that come with it.

[00:12:53.060]
Marcia: And I think you implied this earlier that it’s easy to put a glass of wine in front of a woman and say, Here, drink this. It’s harder to say, Okay, what’s really troubling you? What do you need? And help her find the support that she does need so that she can parent effectively and also be a human being at the same time.

[00:13:18.020]
Celeste: It really encaps any vulnerability in a conversation by ending the conversation altogether. If you would just make a joke after somebody says something like, I’m having a hard time or motherhood is a lot harder than I thought, and you respond, Oh, it sounds like you could use some wine, what could have happened is if you did dig deeper, you might have found out what was really plaguing the mother. Did she get very little sleep last night? Does she think there’s some postpartum depression going on? Is she having trouble with her partner reallocating household responsibilities now that a baby is in the house? These are the things that we need to be having conversations about with new moms, and yet we don’t. I think there’s a general fear.

[00:14:08.290]
Marcia: Your poodle is making a.

[00:14:09.840]
Celeste: Little fuss. Sorry. I just did a little shake. These are the conversations we need to be having with mothers, especially in those early postpartum days.

[00:14:21.930]
Marcia: You said there’s a general fear of something. Of what?

[00:14:25.490]
Celeste: I think there’s a general fear by others of getting too vulnerable and having conversations that might border on uncomfortable.

[00:14:35.090]
Marcia: And also, I imagine if they do say what’s wrong, maybe they feel like they might have to actually make some suggestions and maybe they don’t know how to help each other. If you don’t put the glass of wine in front of the person, what do you do? How do you support your friend?

[00:14:56.900]
Celeste: Right. If you pose the question and the answer is, I need better flexibility at work. What can you do? But the problem is when we don’t even pose the opportunity for us to have the conversations, then nothing gets accomplished. If anything, a mother feels gaslighted because instead of somebody listening to her and offering support or being willing to advocate for her, they are suggesting that the struggles this mother is having is something so minimal, a few glasses of wine could fix it.

[00:15:32.750]
Marcia: Right. And what wine does is it just numbs you, right? And the problems don’t go away. It actually makes them worse because like you said, parenting while inebriated or while hungover is not really a possibility.

[00:15:45.820]
Celeste: Yeah. If it worked, I think more people would be doing it. It doesn’t work. I’m a case point. I tried it. It doesn’t work. It does make everything worse, though. That’s inevitable. And I lost my train of thought, but that’s the problem in a nutshell, is it’s not a helpful conversation to be having. It’s something that is preventing us from digging deeper and having more vulnerable conversations and possibly finding solutions, which is what mothers genuinely need.

[00:16:21.010]
Marcia: Yeah. And I can see how you would lose the track of the conversation because it’s such an emotional thing for you. I could see, because we’re seeing each other. And I could see your face and I could see all the feelings on it and how it moves you to talk about this stuff, how the emotion got the better of the brain for a second there because it’s so important to you.

[00:16:43.700]
Celeste: It is. I really lost myself in motherhood. I took a lot of external frustrations, rage, even some bitterness, and I internalized it. And then I used alcohol to cope with a lot of those emotions, which as we talked about, does not help. It numbs it for a couple of hours, and then you wake up in the morning feeling even worse off. And I did this. I repeated this cycle for too long, if you ask me, before I needed to get out of my own way and get some real help and support. And it was until I was ready to try something different that I was able to make genuine changes, not just to my lifestyle and my future sobriety, but to motherhood, to marriage, to work. I mean, everything collectively changed once I quit drinking.

[00:17:46.750]
Marcia: Sure, because you’re more present. You’re more authentic, and you’re not carrying around all this guilt and shame and secrecy.

[00:17:53.550]
Celeste: Right. And when I started to learn how to feel the feelings in a healthy way, way, then I could actually make significant changes that would improve my life so I don’t need to numb out as much to begin with.

[00:18:11.400]
Marcia: Lovely.

[00:18:12.070]
Celeste: Funny how that works.

[00:18:13.530]
Marcia: Yeah. Interesting. It’s true. Well, so how then did you go from, all right, I’m drinking to deal to now I’m sober to doing what you’re doing today and maybe talk a little bit more about what it is that you’re doing?

[00:18:27.270]
Celeste: Sure. So I have had these moments, convincing moments leading up to when I quit drinking that this is probably not a good direction to be headed. Things where I remember one time I put in a prayer request at church just saying, I’m sabotaging everything good in my life. And I remember thinking, I don’t even know what that means, but I do know I need somebody to pray about this. And now I know exactly what it meant, but it was just one of those little moments, and these little moments just trickled in and trickled in and then finally came to a head one December when I got into work. It was just a typical Monday, and I had a panic attack. And the panic attack really scared me. My father had a stroke when he was 52 from his drinking, and a lot of me thought that maybe this was the exact same thing happening to me. And what would that mean? What would that mean for my future? What would that mean for my family? I saw how it debilitated my dad forever thereafter. I did not want that for my life and my family.

[00:19:44.500]
Celeste: I decided to make a change that day and I quit drinking, but I didn’t really know what that would entail. I just took it day by day and said, I’m just going to figure it out as I go. And that’s how I did it. I slowly started learning about sobriety accounts on social media. I started to learn more about Quitlet that’s out there and reading that. I went to therapy. We went to marriage counseling. I did it step by step in probably a different way than most people would think when they’re in recovery for alcohol. But it worked this way. As long as I think the key was I was always dedicated to learning more. It was a learning journey for me. So I got curious. I explored different ways to do this podcast, to listen to. I made it interesting by just figuring out what resources were out there and available.

[00:20:52.930]
Marcia: And how did you start writing, though?

[00:20:55.220]
Celeste: Well, I had been writing for years. I’ve been a motherhood writer. I had a blog ever since my second child. So that had been something I have always done for fun ever since I was a mom. But it wasn’t until I was one year sober that I decided to let my followers know that I was one year sober. Prior to that, I never mentioned alcohol or sobriety. In fact, I was even creating Mommy Needs Wine means at one point. So I really did the full circle. But when I announced to my followers that I was one year sober, people were so encouraging and so loving and supportive that I realized I should talk more about this. And that’s what I did. I started writing about it more. My agent and I were working on a totally unrelated book, something specific to Motherhood. And she read that post and she called me and she said, We can work on that book another time, but you got to write about this. So everything changed. My book topic changed, my Motherhood page changed, and I really did start leaning into the Motherhood and sobriety side of this topic.

[00:22:15.010]
Marcia: Okay. And what’s this Sober Mom squad? Tell us about that a little bit more.

[00:22:20.220]
Celeste: Yeah. So when the pandemic hit, a friend of mine, Emily Paulson, reached out and said, What can we do to support mothers during this crazy, frustrating time? And me and several other women helped her by creating the Sober Mom squad, which was a virtual community all over Zoom. And each week we held free meetings for anyone who identified as a mom and was interested in sober living. And we met every single week in the pandemic. And in fact, the cool part is we still have that meeting every single Wednesday 10:00 a. M, it’s free. I host it. It’s something that even three years later since the pandemic, we still have people that rely on that meeting as a resource.

[00:23:14.340]
Marcia: That’s amazing. So you’re just doing it for the community just to support them.

[00:23:19.940]
Celeste: Yeah. And since then, my friend Emily has also added an entire app to the community, an opportunity for three to five meetings a day and whatnot. And we still also include that free meeting each week as well.

[00:23:38.130]
Marcia: That’s wonderful. So what have you learned in your journey? Obviously, there’s all the obvious stuff, but what surprising things have you learned in your journey from being a mother blogger who is making memes about drinking to someone running a group every Wednesday morning about sober living?

[00:23:59.620]
Celeste: Yeah, Yeah. On my own journey, I’ve learned so much. But in sobriety as a whole, I think the key that I picked up on is that sobriety is not deprivation, it’s liberation. For such a long time, I was so fearful that taking alcohol away from me and my life would be the ultimate form of deprivation. I would have less of a life if I could not have that as part of my experience, and I was wrong about that. I’m so grateful that I was able to find that out for myself that the liberation that I feel comes from not being obsessed and constantly thinking about alcohol and when I’m going to drink next, how much have I had to drink, all the things that tie you down when you have a drinking problem. And I’m out of the woods where I don’t even think about alcohol. The only times I think about it is when I’m hosting a sober meeting.

[00:25:04.460]
Marcia: That’s a wonderful thing to learn. And what do you think that your work has been able to offer to the community? What a resource do you think you have been able to be?

[00:25:18.040]
Celeste: I hope that when people hear my words, they know that they’re not alone and that there is a spectrum in our drinking stories where it’s not so black and white. I was absolutely a gray area drinker. And when people read what I write and say they see themselves in me, I hope that I can also provide them a beacon of hope that it doesn’t always have to feel like that. I also hope that through my writing and through my platform, I can help build upon this sober movement where people feel encouraged, excited even to speak openly about sober living and the possibilities that come with that.

[00:26:07.090]
Marcia: I like the way you call it not deprivation, but liberation. I gave up sugar many years ago, and I did it for my health, but also because I noticed that whenever I ate sugar in any form, I craved more. I felt like sometimes if I started eating sweets, I just wanted more. And I felt like it was almost like the choice was being taken away from me, like the powerful craving was stronger than my desire to not do it. And when I gave up sugar, it took about two months to not have cravings for sweets. But then afterwards I felt so free. It was like, wow, this feels really good. And I haven’t missed it. And I watch baking shows for fun. I love all those baking shows on TV, but I don’t actually miss eating any of the sweets. I just look at the stuff and I go, Isn’t that pretty? Look at the good job they did. And I never feel like, Oh, I wish I could have it. I just go, That’s really good, talented work there. So having that liberation just around sugar, I totally get how you can feel like, Oh, it’s so good to feel like I am making my own empowered choices and not have something making the choices for me because it’s more powerful than what I really want.

[00:27:33.390]
Celeste: That’s such a great parallel to alcohol, too, because for me, that’s what alcohol felt like. I never just wanted one drink. I wanted three or four. And when you take it off the table completely, it doesn’t mean you have less choices. It means you have more freedom to do more things. It comes down to taking alcohol away opens doors to things you didn’t even know were coming.

[00:28:04.280]
Marcia: Well, actually before I gave up sugar, funny interestingly, I wrote a book called Never Diet Again, which is all about overeating and addiction to food. And I remember writing about how they have done studies with rats and how sugar made their brains respond in the same way as crack did, because it activated the dopamine system. And that really all addiction causes the brain to respond to dopamine. And funnily enough, I didn’t quit sugar at that time, but years later, a few years later I did. But then when I think about it, anything that we’re addicted to, whether or not we have a quote unquote, physiological addiction to it, we do have that brain reaction of dopamine, and the more we do, the more we crave. And that craving is so powerful that we don’t feel free. We don’t feel like we’re making our own empowered choices. We feel that the substance or the activity is choosing for us. And when we cut that substance or activity out of our life, our brain resets. The dopamine pathway settles down, and we don’t have those incredibly powerful cravings that overwhelm us and make our ability to choose authentically no longer possible.

[00:29:19.730]
Celeste: It reminds me of the book, Dopamine Nation, where she talked about the seesaw effect where you get the dopamine high, but then your body is trying to recalibrate and makes the dopamine really low in order to find that middle ground. So you pay the price for that high. And that’s why we have hangovers, right? That’s why we have withdrawals, and those are all the things going through our body.

[00:29:48.100]
Marcia: Exactly. So I totally get the liberation aspect, and I think it’s a wonderful feeling to be able to feel like you’re making choices that are based on what you want rather than what you crave. Absolutely. Because what we crave isn’t really what we want.

[00:30:04.280]
Celeste: Right. And I think when you read about alcohol or dopamine in general, and you learn the science to what’s going on, and you learn that even just the little high, the dopamine high you get from a glass of wine lasts less than 60 minutes. But the price you pay with that spike is far longer. It starts to make you think, is it even worth it? And for me, absolutely, it wasn’t, especially in early motherhood where energy feels like a currency and I only have so much to give. I kept thinking, do I want to be giving my energy to my children or do I want to be giving it to alcohol? Because right now I’m giving it to alcohol and it’s not giving me anything back.

[00:30:52.630]
Marcia: It’s true. My overeaters used to say they felt good for about 20 minutes after a binge. 20 minutes and then a lifetime of regret.

[00:31:01.850]
Marcia: Yeah, a lot of withdrawal feeling after that. Absolutely.

[00:31:06.310]
Marcia: So this is a really great conversation because it not only applies to drinking and to mothers, but anybody who is caught in this cycle of compulsive behavior and these powerful cravings and really wants to get free.

[00:31:21.810]
Celeste: Yeah, I think when you play the tape forward, which is a comment saying we say in recovery, and you consider what you really want, what’s behind that craving for a glass of wine or a cookie, and you can go back to the source and also recognize what will happen after you consume it and the aftermath of that, and maybe the spiral that takes you down or the awful feeling afterwards, you just realize it’s not worth it. The anguish, all the work and pain and mental load that goes into just incorporating this thing into your life. Imagine the freedom you get when you take that away from you life.

[00:32:13.370]
Celeste: Yeah. It’s not a blessing. It’s a curse.

[00:32:15.880]
Marcia: Right. So it’s been really wonderful talking with you. And I just want to finish up by asking my usual three questions. And the first of that is, what are you currently working on? You say you do a lot of writing. Is there something in particular that you’re writing these days?

[00:32:33.080]
Celeste: Yes. I have a book coming out soon called It’s Not About the Wine: The Loaded Truth Behind Mommy Wine Culture. And it talks a lot about the pressures of motherhood and how more women are drinking than ever and what we can be doing instead to cope with some of the stressors of motherhood.

[00:32:52.130]
Marcia: That’s super important. I’m really looking forward to that book coming out. That’s really great. If people want to find you, it’s question number two here, and they are interested in learning about what you do or about your Silver Mom squad. How can they find you?

[00:33:09.000]
Celeste: They can find me on social media, Facebook or Instagram at the ultimate mom challenge. My website is CelesteYvonne.com, and the book will be available anywhere books are sold.

[00:33:21.100]
Marcia: Fantastic. And my last question is, if you have a call to action for the listener, something that they could consider or trying to think about going forward?

[00:33:31.490]
Celeste: Yeah. I would say anybody who wants to rethink their relationship with alcohol, regardless of where you’re at right now, I would recommend just taking a 30-day break and just see what you learn from it. You’re going to learn important information from that break. You might realize you sleep better. You might realize you have less mood swings. You’ll gather important data from those 30 days. And if anything, it just provides a great reset for your body. So that would be my recommendation.

[00:34:01.880]
Marcia: That’s a really cool call to action. And it’s like, what do they say? Sober January or something.

[00:34:07.920]
Celeste: Like that? Dry January.

[00:34:09.560]
Celeste: Dry.

[00:34:09.800]
Celeste: January. Sober October is coming up.

[00:34:13.980]
Marcia: Right. Or freedom for September, whichever.

[00:34:17.580]
Celeste: Yeah. You pick a month.

[00:34:19.250]
Marcia: There we go. Well, thank you so much, Celeste Bon. It’s really been great talking with you today and really important message for mothers and everyone, really.

[00:34:29.160]
Celeste: Thank you, Marcia. This was great.

[00:34:32.950]
Marcia: This is Dr. Marcia Sirota. Thank you for listening. Please leave a review and your comments wherever you listen to podcasts. And don’t forget to sign up for my free newsletter at marciasirotamd.com where you’ll learn about upcoming online events as well. Also, we love getting referrals from our listeners about future podcast guests, so please email us at info@marciasirotamd.com