Full Transcript

[00:00:00.810] – Marcia
Ruthless Compassion is a podcast about how you can turn your emotional shit into fertilizer for success and see your darkest moments as opportunities to transform into a powerful kindness warrior. If you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review wherever you listen.

[00:00:21.000] – Marcia
Welcome to the Ruthless Compassion podcast. Today we have Juan Ayala, who is an actor, director, journalist and podcaster. And we’re going to do something a little bit different today. We’re going to do a TV show review and we’re going to review the show Sort Of, which is a hit in Canada and also it seems to be a bit of a hit in the United States where you come from, right?

[00:00:42.980] – Juan
Yes, definitely. Very well received and critically praised here.

[00:00:47.460] – Marcia
Wonderful. So before we start talking about the show, I thought maybe you could just say a little bit about yourself and who you are and why it’s fun for you to talk about this show in particular.

[00:00:57.720] – Juan
Yeah. So my name is Juan Ayala. As you all heard before, I’m an actor, journalist, podcaster wear, jack of all trades. I went to school for theater in Connecticut and then continued studying here in New York City and I’ve been a journalist for the last five years. I’m part of the Critics Association. I work for a company called Media Village. I write reviews for the website. I host a podcast there with guests each week that are from entertainment. We talk about diversity and inclusion shows called Multicultural TV Talk. And prior to that, I started my first podcast called Actors with Issues, which also has guests from Entertainment, TV, Film and Broadway. And we sort of break down different stigmas that actors don’t often talk about that you see in interviews. You do a little bit now around awards season, I think it’s Variety or Hollywood Reporter will have those round table interviews with all of the actors who are sort of awards buzzing at that time. And it’s like a 45 minutes to an hour. So they’ll cover everything from getting their first agents to obstacles they face in their career. But I’m not talking with A -listers.

[00:02:04.840] – Juan
It’s with sort of folks who are coming up, who are in the thick of it right now in their careers. So we talk about a lot of stuff from mental health to diversity to the various issues given the name of our show actors. The various issues that actors who are on the rise right now do encounter through social media, through many different things that are going on there. But yeah, that’s basically me. And for this show, for sort of I had one of the actors on my podcast, Amanda Cordner, who plays seven on the series. She was a guest on my show earlier this year. And watching the show, I always like to do as much research as I can when I have a guest on. So I’ll watch, if I care, the full season of their show as much as I can and was just very surprised at how nuanced the show was in general, the wonderful things it does for representation. You’re seeing these non binary characters, these gender fluid characters who are people of color, who are not often represented. If they are in a show, they’re sometimes a character. They’re there for the joke to be the butt of the joke, or to deliver a quippy one liner and then walk off.

[00:03:15.190] – Juan
But here they’re front and center and it’s really wonderful to see that level of representation. And actually did get to audition for season two after becoming a fan. Didn’t get it. So obviously, as you all know, you watched the show, but it was just really great to get to sort of tackle that rating early on because the writing is just so great on the show.

[00:03:35.020] – Marcia
Yeah, it’s really a very special show. And when you were talking about how non binary characters, gender fluid characters and people of color are not represented, I was thinking that a lot of the times what you see on TV is that there’s a victim, they’re the murdered body. Right. That’s a terrible.

[00:03:53.760] – Juan
The story revolves around them, but they’re dead.

[00:03:57.670] – Marcia
Yeah, exactly. Traumatized. Exactly. That’s not the way you want to represent a community on TV or in the movies. Right. So I thought we could start by you giving your review of the series and the first couple of shows of the second season. And then I’ll jump in and I’ll give my mental health related review where I talk about what I think they get right and what I think they don’t get right, if anything, in terms of mental health. So I hand it over to you.

[00:04:29.330] – Juan
Yeah. So even though the show is a comedy, it is still very serious. It’s very grounded as well, which I appreciate. It’s not over the top humor, it’s very subtle. The kids on the show are hilarious with their one liners or whatever, but it deals with some pretty troubling and dark material, which is really interesting to see in a queer storyline because as you mentioned, queer storylines often in shows have to do a lot with trauma. They take place during the AIDS epidemic, which is very important to see in media. But it’s not all like where’s the queer joy, and in this case Sabi, is on this wonderful journey of self discovery, but then family gets involved and as a Latino, myself and many ethnic communities still have tons of toxic masculinity that we all have to deal with during our own coming out journeys. But the way it’s been handled on the show so far has just been handled so delicately. Bilal Saib, who plays Sabi, also is a co-creator of the show and they handle their material incredibly well. They’re writing for themselves and they do it wonderfully. That’s always the case.

[00:05:41.390] – Juan
Surprisingly, watching shows like oh, they co created the show, so why is it not great, especially in comedy. Lots of comedians will write a movie for themselves to star in, and it’s not always the best executed. But in terms of this show, I just love how sensitive everything is. Everything is very personal, but still in that specificity, it’s still very universal. We’ve all had troubles with family, with gender roles, told how we’re supposed to act or dress when it says who. Society? Who are they? Because I’m part of society, so if I say different, it’s valid. I really do commend the show and everyone involved. So much for being so delicate, but also being very vocal with what they’re saying. They’re saying it and they’re saying it loud and unfiltered. And it’s really wonderful to see.

[00:06:34.550] – Juan
Yeah, it’s almost like you’re watching just some friends of yours hanging out, living their lives. It doesn’t feel like it’s TV. It feels so not false. It’s so like real life. And like, you talk about it being nuanced and subtle. It really feels like we’re just watching a slice of real life in Toronto with real people and real families. And even though it’s funny, it’s the kind of humor that you would expect in ordinary life with cute kids making jokes or whatever. Right. It just seems very natural.

[00:07:08.900] – Juan
Yeah, it reminds me of one of my other favorite comedies ever that also takes place in Toronto is Kim’s Convenience, which, while very funny, also has very real issues between father and son, mom and daughter, partners, sexuality, identity. And it’s very funny, but it’s also during those dramatic moments, it’s very dramatic and very real. And yeah, I mean, CBC bravo, because you guys are doing a lot of great stuff with comedies, making people cry every couple of episodes. This is a comedy. Why am I crying? By the end of Schitt’s Creek, everyone’s weeping by the end of that show.

[00:07:48.460] – Marcia
Yeah. Well, I think there’s obviously some type of sensibility up here where we recognize that comedy doesn’t have to be slapstick and it can be nuanced. It can have elements of sadness and poignancy and tenderness, and it doesn’t have to be just hardy harhar.

[00:08:06.100] – Juan
Right? Yeah, absolutely. American comedy has gone that way a bit. We’re leaving behind in front of a live studio audience type of sitcom that’s very theatrical and over the top and slapsticky, as you said. And we’re going more the way of subtle humor, nuanced humor. Humor with a message that doesn’t feel preachy. We’re just telling a story. You take it at whatever value you want.

[00:08:31.270] – Marcia
Is there any character in the show that you particularly loved or related to that you really felt like, oh, yeah, this is the character for me. My favorite character.

[00:08:42.560] – Juan
I mean, the two kids in season one were just so wonderfully handled. I mean, the little boy reminded me a lot of my nephew glued to his little gaming device and couldn’t not a care in the world when they have to make a decision, they’re ready to make it. And kids have so much inner strength that we don’t realize. And I love my nephew to death. He’s 14 now. He’s not a little kid with a gaming device. Now he’s on his cell phone. It’s no longer his little Nintendo Switch. He still plays it. And then for season two, coincidentally, it’s a character I auditioned for, was Wolf, who is a new character this season.

[00:09:19.120] – Marcia
Yeah.

[00:09:21.480] – Juan
In the US. We’re only on episode two on HBO, Max. We’re not as far as you all are in Canada, but I just love what I know what’s happening because I read the script, so I know a bit of what’s going to happen later and just love how it’s being handled. I was very shy. I’m still very shy and introverted, but I interview people for a living now, so I’ve learned to break out of my shell a bit. But since then, before that, I was very introverted and I didn’t come out until my mid 20s, so before that, I was also having the sort of identity crises and the awakening and all of that. So I relate with his character very much.

[00:09:59.140] – Marcia
Yeah. I think every single character is played with those nuances and those subtleties, and they’re all believable. Like, there’s not one dud in the mix. Like, every single character, the parents, Bessie and her husband, their kids, every character, even the small roles, everyone seems very believable. Right. If we jump ahead toward later part of season two, seven’s mother appears.

[00:10:29.440] – Marcia
Oh, really?

[00:10:30.450] – Marcia
She’s an interesting character. Her daughter calls her an emotional vampire. And the way she was portrayed, I think they got it right. So it doesn’t feel like there’s a dead character in the whole mix, right?

[00:10:50.070] – Juan
Yeah. Everyone is completely written with intention, and that’s the beauty of it being a small show. There’s no filler. It is about this nanny and the family they care for and their family and their friend, and that’s it. It’s very small and there’s no need, even story wise, to bring in random guest characters. You have Olympia, who serves her purpose in the story as sort of this awakening for Sabi in season one and this sort of just complete disregard for the people around them. And who cares what they think? I’m living my life, and that’s great to see because a lot of times you don’t get to see that in queer stories. It’s always a story of how worried they are, of how others perceive them. And you have this fabulous character come in and say, who cares? They don’t run your life, so why are you so worried about them? It’s great.

[00:11:40.820] – Marcia
I wanted to kind of go through some of the characters since you mentioned Olympia. I wanted to talk about her because for those of you who haven’t seen up to episode two of season two, close your ears right now. But for the rest of you.

[00:11:56.070] – Juan
Spoiler Alert

[00:11:56.540] – Marcia
Yeah. For the rest of you, what happens is that Sabi gets high at a club waiting for Olympia, who’s extremely late to show up, and then Olympia shows up with a surprise husband, that Sabi didn’t realize was in the mix. And then they get into an argument over some stuff, which I don’t need to get into right now, but Sabi, because they’re so high, says to Olympia, you’re so flaky. You’re so flaky, you never get back to me. And this is the gentlest rebuke a person could give. And Sabi is so non confrontational, and only because they are tripping out on ecstasy that their lips were loosened, right? Like, they never would have said it if they weren’t completely stoned. And so their true feelings come out, right? They’re annoyed, at least, or frustrated with Olympia’s selfishness, basically, and unreliability. And they say, you’re so flaky.

[00:12:54.320] – Marcia
And Olympia just says, like, Fine, have a good life, and storms off. So for me, as a psychiatrist, I see Olympia as a Narcissist. And the positive aspects of the Narcissist are that they don’t care about what anyone thinks. They can be fabulous because they have tremendous self confidence, at least on a superficial level. They don’t worry about the consequences of their actions, which for Sabi is probably like a good thing. For Olympia, maybe it’s a little to the excess. And, you know, I was thinking about the scene after Sabi and Olympia are in bed, and Olympia throws off the sheets and starts getting dressed. And Sabi says, do you have to go to work? And Olympia goes, no. And you realize that Olympia is just leaving because there’s nothing interesting for her there. But as soon as Sabi is, like, looking at their fingernails, and Olympia goes, oh, I could do those, then there’s something for her to do that’s interesting to Olympia, so she stays, right? So it’s very clear that Olympia is there for what works for her, and she’s not there if it’s not interesting or exciting or stimulating. And when confronted, she has what’s called Narcissistic rage.

[00:14:11.720] – Marcia
And she was confronted in the most gentle way you could confront a person. I mean, the way Sabi did it like, I wish everybody would confront me that way. That’s the way I want to be confronted. But Olympia had zero tolerance for even the gentlest of feedback, of negative feedback. And that’s it. She’s gone. She ghosted Sabi and, yes, Sabi understood Olympia’s role in their life and said, I learned something, so I’m just going to say goodbye and thank you for the things that I got from being around you. But Olympia is gone. She’s gone. So that to me, is a very good portrayal of a Narcissist, the positive and the negative aspects. And then that Narcissistic rage when something happens that they don’t like, and then they can cut you without a backward glance. So that’s the character of Olympia. Does that make sense to you as a layperson?

[00:15:07.810] – Juan
Absolutely. Yeah. Olympia you hit the nail on the head. Really. It’s just their entire reaction and just being told you can’t tell them that if they ask for your opinion, you know, not to give your honest opinion, especially if it’s not in favor of what you think they want to hear, because they just want to hear what they want to hear, not your honesty. But yeah, completely agree.

[00:15:34.150] – Juan
Yeah. All right. So then the other character I wanted to talk about is Paul, Bessie’s husband, because Paul is a psychotherapist and he is to me, the archetype of what we call the wounded healer, the person who’s helping others but is so messed up. I don’t want to say anything about you, I don’t know you, but we just met. But this guy, Paul is so typical of the wounded healer. They made several scenes of him binge eating, because if you missed it the first couple of times, you’re going to get it the third time. Right? And the guy is he’s like compulsively stuffing his face with food. And this is a very typical thing that people do when they don’t want to feel their feelings. So when he’s not completely clueless about his feelings, he’s stuffing them down, forcibly binge eating. And he seems to be completely clueless about what his kids need. And he kind of takes advantage of Sabi, right. Pushes them away when he feels he needs to assert his dominance as a father, pulls them in when he feels like he’s out of control and he has needs. And so it’s very selfish and self centered and clueless.

[00:16:50.580] – Marcia
So he’s kind of this entitled white male character, entitled, privileged, white male, clueless about feelings character, and also this wounded healer who very typically is completely incompetent in dealing with his own mess, his own marriage, his own family. And so I think, again, that’s two out of two, they got that absolutely right. The character is totally true. His cluelessness, come hither when I need you and get lost when I want to be the daddy. And poor Sabi is just so non confrontational and so painfully non confrontational and painfully trying to please Bessie. And so we’ll put up with any amount of crap from Paul in order to be there for Bessie and indirectly for Bessie through the kids, who they also love. So it’s poor Sabi is just putting up with so much crap that another person would not put up with because they have another agenda, which is to be there for Bessie and the kids. And so Paul gets away with this nonsense, which so many of these entitled, clueless people do, thinking that they’re getting away with it because the other person really wants to do it for them, when, like in Sabi’s case, they’re doing it for a completely other set of reasons.

[00:18:09.920] – Marcia
That also rings true to you.

[00:18:11.840] – Juan
Yes, absolutely. Paul’s care. I raised my hand when he said wounded healer. Because I’m the youngest of two. I was a grew up a mama’s boy, always ready to help and listen when someone in the house needed to vent. I’m still like that I take on more responsibility than I should in my day to day life, to be honest, and put other people prioritize them before I do my like, it took me years to get into therapy. I should have wait earlier than I did and would have helped a lot of heartbreak beforehand. But, yeah, I just totally relate to Paul in that sense. Not so much that I’m entitled.

[00:18:52.150] – Juan
I try very hard not to be insensitive.

[00:18:56.800] – Marcia
The things he says that he gets away with.

[00:19:01.760] – Juan
Treating Sabi as if they’re disposable. And it’s very frustrating to see because I feel like we all kind of know someone like that. It’s just I need your help when I say so. And when I don’t need you, go away. Come on.

[00:19:17.480] – Marcia
But it’s so true. It’s so true to life. It’s so well done. So he’s kind of a pathetic character. You feel kind of sorry to him when you’re not busy hating him. Right? I think he was a very well realized, fully realized character who you kind of like hating, but you also have a little tinge of pity for it because you see how underneath all that arrogance, he’s kind of a loser. So that’s interesting with the cool wife. Yeah, he’s definitely married someone who’s out of his league. Right? So it’s interesting that way. So then I just wanted to touch on Seven briefly and the mom Rafo. So I think Seven is an interesting character because you don’t get to know that much about them and what’s really going on inside. And I think in part, it’s because Seven uses humor as a defense mechanism to kind of stay not vulnerable. Right? They laugh about everything. They’re like, ha ha. Like jocular and kind of chummy and cool with the kids and cool with the moms and dads. And it’s all a way to be not vulnerable. And only in season two when they’re confronting their mother later on in the series, in the season that you start to see some of their vulnerability and you start to see some of their true feelings come out.

[00:20:42.120] – Marcia
And it’s like, okay, that’s where you are, Seven. But I think that Seven is definitely hiding behind humor. And again, I think that the series got it right in terms of mental health, in terms of a typical defense mechanism that people use, which is called humor, and how humor is a wonderful thing and it’s very healing and it’s very nurturing. But we can also use it as something to hide behind when we don’t want to show our vulnerability. Now, the character has plenty of reason not to want to be vulnerable, being who they are in the world. But just in terms of the mental health portrayal, I think the series again got it right. So that’s three out of three. And would you agree with that?

[00:21:22.640] – Juan
Yeah, Seven definitely has a fortress built around them. Not just a wall, but a fortress. And they also take things a bit personally. Like when Sabi decided not to move to Berlin with them, I mean, they ended up dodging a bullet because it didn’t work out for Seven. So if anything up above was looking out for Sabi, not for Seven in that case, but they just took it so personally. It’s like, not everything is about you. To me, it’s a little bit of a selfish character at times as well.

[00:21:54.280] – Marcia
Well, when you find out more about their mother, again, that’s where it comes from. Complete context. Yeah, it makes total sense why they have this kind of interpersonal rejection sensitivity. You know, when you have a mother like like Seven has, their sensitivity becomes very contextualized, and it’s like, okay, now I understand. And also the humor, the defensive humor, because the mother is so challenging that you could either become really angry or you could become really funny. So you can see that Seven made the better choice, you know, in terms of how to deal with, you know, the childhood that they have. And then in terms of the mom, Rafo. And I think that her character is really interesting because she’s a very traditional woman from a Muslim background. Grew up in Pakistan, living in Canada, still 1 foot out in the old country, 1 foot in the new world, and married to a very traditional husband who, for the first whole first season was not around, and then shows up in season two. And then his role gets bigger as the season progresses. But you can really see her evolving. And the motivator for her evolution is her love for Sabi, for her child.

[00:23:07.810] – Marcia
And again, that rings true. So much of what I see in the media that they get wrong is how people evolve. Their motivations for evolving often ring very false. Their process of evolution is always way too quick, and they seem to have skipped some basic psychological steps. But in Rafo’s case, and then later we’ll see in the dad’s case as well, in Imran’s case, the evolution of the parents is very, again, nuanced, that word that you brought up very gentle, again, a word you brought up very gradual and very well paced. So it’s not this sudden, like, okay, now we love and accept our child and everything is great. No, it’s the way you would expect parents from that background and that time and place to do it, and in a way that’s believable. So kudos, again, to the writers, to Bilal Baig and Fab Filippo and all the people, because they are doing this in a way that, yes, it doesn’t ring false. And I think that’s why, even though it’s such a small show with such a focused story, it feels very universal because I think the way they’re portraying these psychological processes, these evolutions and these stumbles and these difficult people are so realistic that they become universal.

[00:24:34.040] – Marcia
Right. The more true they get, the more universal they get.

[00:24:37.840] – Juan
Yeah, completely. Rafo is probably one of my it’s hard to pick a favorite character, but I just love her progression and the use of the wall that they torn down as sort of like an allegory for her progression when the husband first arrives and it’s like, what happened to the wall? She said, I told you, open concept. I’m like, oh my God. She’s literally opening up her views on the gender spectrum, on identity and all of that. And in watching the recap, because you start the new season, it says previously on sort of it showed the bit where she says, so what are you, gender binary? She was like and then Sabi says, did you look it up online. She says, well, I have to research if I’m going to accept, or something like that. Along those lines, paraphrasing. But I feel like most parents would want to Google everything they can about their child coming out or new expression, or the way they want to now live their lives. And I just love what they’ve done with the character. And I can’t remember the actress name, but I love her as well, he’s hilarious in Kim’s convenience.

[00:25:43.400] – Juan
I think she was a guest star on Schitt’s Creek as well. She’s all over Canadian TV and she is delightful. It’s such a great, wonderfully, grounded performance from her as well.

[00:25:52.360] – Marcia
Yeah, I guess all the characters are believable, and so we can relate to them because they feel like real people that we have met or aspects of which we have met in our own lives. So the last character, of course, that I want to talk about is the main characters, Sabi, played by and written by Belbegue, the creator, co creator of the show. And I think when you think of the title of the show, sort of some people might think, oh, it’s about their sort of gender identity. But I think sort of is really about the real issue with Sabi, which is their ambivalence. Right. To me, they are a representative of ambivalence. They want desperately to be loved and approved of by their parents, and yet they also want desperately to be true to who they are. Right. They are super ambivalent about Bessie, who I think they are secretly in love with. And yet when Bessie was when they were saying goodbye because they thought they were going to Berlin and Bessie was saying, I’m going to miss you, Sabi. Sabi did not turn around and say, I’m going to miss you too, because of this ambivalence.

[00:27:03.010] – Marcia
Right. And they are ambivalent about so many things. There’s a scene where they’ve gone to their parents house and they’re wearing a beautiful dress and lots of jewelry and makeup and the uncle and cousin are coming over and mom says, you can’t wear this. Go upstairs and change. And they go, no, I’m not going to change. And then they go to the door and one look is all it takes. And they go upstairs and they put on a sweatshirt and jeans. Right. So they want to be themselves. And then it takes very little because they’re so afraid of being disapproved of. Right. So they have this profound ambivalence. So that’s I think the sort of of the show I don’t think the sort of is really about the gender issues. I think the sort of is about how hard it is for them to know what they want. Do they want to be a nanny? Do they want to go to Berlin? Do they want to have a career? Do they want to be in love with person A, B or C, they don’t know what they want. Right. And I think that’s their sort of does that mean true to you?

[00:28:05.150] – Juan
Yes. It’s definitely a multilayered title, for sure. I think it and it’s with almost every character is sort of like 1ft in, 1ft out. They’re like dipping their toes, but not sure yet. Sabi with how they want to express their identity and Seven with how they are living their lives. They want to be this artist, but then things don’t work out, so they’re forced to sort of revert back to square one. And even with characters like Olympia, I feel like even she’s trying to have fun and meet new people, but then ends up shutting people out from completely on their own from their own doing. And with Rafo trying to same thing. So many characters have that sort sort of of.

[00:28:54.640] – Marcia
Paul. And Bessie also has a sort of right. Because Bessie is also like she’s saying, I want to leave Paul, and then maybe I don’t want to leave Paul. Right.

[00:29:04.740] – Marcia
A lot of people have ambivalence in the show. A lot of people are experiencing that sort of and again, I think for many of us, we can relate to ambivalence because everyone’s been ambivalent about something in their lives. Maybe not as ambivalent about so many things surrounded by so many other ambivalent people, but that’s fiction. But I think we can relate to ambivalence. Right. We can relate to not knowing what we want or wanting two things at the same time and not knowing which to choose. Right?

[00:29:31.180] – Juan
Yeah. Absolutely. Of all the very relatable things in the show, it’s probably the most relatable because we all second guess things in our day to day. And what if we did this? I’ll never know. But we still harp on it, even though we’ll never know it’s that terrifying unknown that keeps our days interesting.

[00:29:52.820] – Marcia
Yeah. I remember when in season one where Seven is saying, come to Berlin with me, and Sabi is saying, I can’t come to Berlin with you. And you can really see. How torn they are because on the one hand they want to please Seven and of course they want to go to Berlin and on the other hand they want to be there for Bessie and the kids. So they’re like, who is who am I going to take care of? My best friend or this person I might be in love with? Right? Like, what do I do? What do I do? And there’s the ambivalence, right? Which do I decide? So I think again, the creators got it right. They got the ambivalence spot on and it’s so believable and it’s so again, nuanced and subtle and it’s not like this kind of slapstick ambivalence. It’s much more authentic, I think. I think that’s, again, why it’s done so well that the authenticity is just pouring out of it. And the other thing I think about Sabi’s character is that as we talked about, they are such a people pleaser. Right? You mentioned in your own experience, I’m sure you can relate to that.

[00:30:58.600] – Marcia
So Sabi just wants to make everybody happy, right? They want to make their father happy and their mother happy and their sister happy and their best friend happy and Bessie and the kids happy and the people that they’re going out with happy and everybody has to be happy. And what about Sabi? And I think at some point was it their mother who was saying like is this really what you want to live how you want to live your life? And I think what mom was really saying is are you thinking about what you want or are you just running around making sure everyone around you is happy? I think in season two the episodes progress. You do see Sabi’s character pursuing more of their own goals and their own interests and their own romance, which is lovely. So they’re getting a little bit more definitive. But I think that they’ve had to really struggle with that people pleasing and going upstairs and changing the clothes right when the cousin and the uncle come along. So that people pleasing, I think again, is very true to life, very much about the kinds of things we do when we don’t feel like we’re lovable in and of ourselves.

[00:32:07.460] – Marcia
We don’t feel like just who I am is enough and I have to do something extra. I have to go that extra mile and tolerate that extra crap from others so that I’m acceptable in their eyes, right? And I’m sure that there’s a layer of the whole gender issue that makes it more complicated. When we are, quote unquote, different in some way from the people in our lives and especially from the family of origin, we’re going to have maybe more insecurity sense of not being what they would approve of and therefore that people pleasing would be more likely. So I think again in terms of the mental health perspective that character feels right on in terms of their ambivalence and their people pleasing. And also in terms of their evolution, which I think is really important in fiction, you have to have a story arc, you have to have a character arc where there’s a change, right. Where they’re starting in one place and then they’re going to another place. So it’s nice to see them. Even when they confronted Olympia, inadvertently because they were on drugs, they still confronted somebody, which was amazing. Right.

[00:33:11.930] – Juan
And it was a start. So hopefully they can have more assertiveness as time goes on, and we can see more of their evolution as we get more episodes and maybe more seasons. So that’s my take on the mental health. So I think that all the characters, they got it right. I don’t see any mistakes or omissions or problems with the mental health as portrayed on Sort Of. I’m very impressed by the way that they have included that aspect in the rest of the show.

[00:33:46.300] – Juan
Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that it’s partly Bilal’s own story and lives experience. That’s where the authenticity comes in. And it’s not people writing about what they think depression is like, or what they think anxiety or narcissism is like based on other portrayals in media. It is very grounded. And again, hats off to all of the writers and Bilal and everyone for portraying it in such a lovely, emotionally driven, authentic way. I hope more people watch the show. I won’t name names, but most streaming services are horrible at marketing their shows. They just will have it in the rotating programs on their home screen and that’s about it. But you don’t see commercials for Netflix shows on broadcast TV. You might see a YouTube ad, maybe, but otherwise it’s hard for people. This shows definitely grown more popular because of word of mouth, because of people loving how it’s been handled and recommending it to others. And I will continue to recommend it to other people because it’s wonderful.

[00:34:59.780] – Marcia
And I think it’s important for us to say that it’s not a niche show, right. It’s not just a show that people in the queer community would like or people in the Muslim community would like. That’s a very limited perspective of what the show is about. I think it’s a show that everyone would like. Right.

[00:35:17.530] – Marcia
That makes sense. Again, it seems niche like. One of my favorite shows right now, which I think will probably be number one on my top ten list this year, is a show on FX, on Hulu called Reservation Dogs, which follows a group of four indigenous teens on a reservation in Oklahoma. And you think, that sounds super specific, how could I possibly relate to that? But there is someone to relate to everywhere, and to one of the parents, to one of the kids, to their friends, to the tribal police cop that they deal with all the time. And the same goes with Sort Of these are very specifically written characters, but because of that, it’s not broad. So it’s not like, do I relate to them or not. It’s like, you will relate to someone on the show because everyone has experienced some level of what they’re going through, whether it’s a tough decision of what you’re going to do for a living, who you’re going to please, going for a relationship or not, breaking out of your shell, anything. There’s so much to relate to here. Yeah.

[00:36:24.260] – Marcia
And the characters like Bessie as a mom, having to recognize that her children are seeing her in different ways, and having to contend with that and how to deal with her marriage. And I think for a lot of parents, that’s a very relatable issue. And just for Paul as a dad, as a parent, that’s also a relatable issue when you feel like you’re just not handling the things, you’re failing to keep all the balls in the air. So I think, yeah, there are a lot of different characters that I can relate to several characters in the story, and I think that’s why it’s so nice, because at different points in the story, with different things happening, anybody can relate to a number of different characters with what they’re going through. Just even saying a line like, you’re an emotional vampire to the mother, it’s like so many people can just relate to that one line, and not necessarily about a mother, but about any person that they’ve experienced who was that way. It’s like, oh, I know a person like that. I felt that way, that this person just wants to suck all the energy out of the room. Right.

[00:37:34.420] – Juan
I feel like people definitely heard that line and were like, oh, I’m using that. I’m going to use that. What a great way to describe that person. That gets on my nerves.

[00:37:42.660] – Marcia
Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. We should recommend it highly to everybody, both because it’s a great piece of art and from my perspective, because unlike a lot of shows that we see on TV or in the movies, it actually gets the mental health aspect correct on every level. There’s no problems, no mistakes. There’s no failing grades in any way in this show. So I think for both the artistic merit and because they’re portraying things in a realistic way, I think we’re both giving it top ratings.

[00:38:15.980] – Juan
Yeah. My one gripe with the show, not enough episodes, longer season streaming. Everything is eight to ten, maybe 13 episodes these days. The the days of a 22 episode season are long gone, but which is a bummer because those could use a longer run.

[00:38:34.650] – Marcia
But you need you need to watch Korean soap operas because they have 16 episodes of an hour and they’re all written for 16 episodes. Whether they have enough material. I’ve watched several of them. They’re really fun. But some of them, there’s enough material, and you have like the story arc goes right to the end. And then some of them, you feel like, oh, gosh, they’re just trying to write something to fill in for the last five episodes.

[00:39:01.450] – Marcia
Yeah, I mean, Hispanic Tele-novelas, they run Monday through Friday for three months. It’s like close to 100 episodes. And you’re like, come on, he could have wrapped this up two weeks ago.

[00:39:16.440] – Marcia
Well, listen, Juanaala, it’s really been a pleasure talking to you about something a little bit different from my end and something obviously very familiar and comfortable for you to talk about. But I hope that for the listeners, this combo of mental health plus TV show review was a little different and a little fun. And if people are looking to find you and what you’re doing, where can they find you?

[00:39:44.640] – Juan
Yes, firstly, thank you so much for having me. This is an absolute pleasure, chatting about a show that I absolutely love. And yes, folks can find my podcast Actors with Issues on YouTube. Just search Actors with Issues. You’ll find a couple of interviews there. We have new episodes every Monday and bonus episodes sometimes throughout the week, depending on how many guests we have, time sensitive premieres and all of that. You can follow us on Instagram at Actors at this Shoes. You can follow me at Instagram at JuanAyala official Twitter at ijuanayala like iPhone. iJuanAyala. And yeah, hopefully I’ll be on someone’s TV screen soon, but until then, you can catch me on YouTube, Spotify, Apple podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:40:28.380] – Marcia
Well, thanks again for coming on the show. This was really lots of fun.

[00:40:32.980] – Juan
Thank you so much.

[00:40:36.720] – Marcia
This is Dr. Marcia, Sirota. Thank you for listening. Please leave a review and your comments wherever you listen to podcasts. And don’t forget to sign up for my free newsletter at Marcia SirotaMd.com, where you’ll learn about upcoming online events as well. Also, we love getting referrals from our listeners about future podcast guests, so please email us at info@marciasrodamd.com.