124 — Megan Bruneau-Shame, Perfectionism, and Self-Compassion .mp3 - powered by Happy Scribe

Ruthless Compassion is a podcast about how you can turn your emotional shit into fertilizer for success and see your darkest moments as opportunities to transform into a powerful kindness warrior. If you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review wherever you listen.

Welcome Megan Bruneau to the Recluse Compassion podcast.

Thank you for having me, Marcia. I'm super excited to be here again.

Yeah, it's nice to see you again. And before we jump right in, maybe you could remind the listeners who you are and what you do.

Sure, yeah. So my name is Megan Bruneau. I'm a therapist and executive coach and writer and speaker and all those sorts of things, but everything really related to mental health. And I work primarily with high performers like executives and entrepreneurs and attorneys and surgeons and all the rest. But ultimately, what I tend to help people do is just become more aware of the shame that they carry within their bodies and in their minds and help them change their relationship to themselves and to their difficult emotions. So that they can show up and support themselves rather than abandoning themselves during challenging times and really just change their perspective when it comes to difficult emotions and difficult chapters in their lives and sort of, as you say, change. What is your thing? Turning the shit into fertilizer or something along those lines of really being able to kind of find meaningful, challenging periods and grow from them and become more resilient moving forward. Cool.

Well, I love this idea about people who carry shame because nobody talks about it, really. And it's so powerful a motivator. Right. Can you say more about what happens when we got all the shame sitting inside of us?

Yes, of course. So there are many different lenses to look at this through, but I think what will be most residents for people is just understanding that shame can be actually an emotion that we experience temporarily that's productive. Like, all emotions are evolutionarily adaptive, right. Like, they're there for a reason. They've actually been the reason that we've stayed alive for hundreds of thousands of years. And oftentimes in our culture, especially in, like, the positive thinking culture that's all about being happy and choosing your happiness and stuff like that, which I'm not a huge fan of, I find it very shaming and pathologizing. We don't hear that. It's like, oh, anxiety is there to say, do something. It's motivating. It's signifying a threat, or loneliness says connect, or guilt says you should prepare a relationship where perhaps there's been a transgression of some sort. And so really, every emotion comes back to survival. For one, such as anxiety, as I mentioned, or being prosocial in the sense it'll keep us in groups. So historically, especially in cave person times, we'll say, if we were alone, we wouldn't have survived. Right. Not only would we not have survived, we wouldn't have gotten in on the kill and been able to have dinner, we wouldn't have been able to sleep at night with protection, and we wouldn't have procreated, right? So the human race would not have proliferated. So all emotions are really there to offer us information that we should take in and pay attention to. And it's not always telling the truth. That's where mindfulness comes in, being able to kind of decide, okay, is this the truth or is this perhaps trauma or a story I'm telling myself? But all those emotions we should pay attention to. So that all coming back to shame. There is a healthy expression of shame, and the main difference between healthy shame and what we might label as like, toxic shame or chronic shame is how long it lasts. So a short experience of shame that's there and is like, okay, well, I'll go into more nuances here, but let's say that you're on a bus and you're like a healthy, ablebodied young person, and there's someone who gets onto the bus and they're disabled and they're elderly, and it's common practice to get up and give that person your seat, right? Like, that's sort of just something that in our society is understood, at least. I don't know. I mean, I actually haven't taken many buses in New York, but I know in Canada, right, where Vancouver, where I'm from, that was very much a common practice, and I'm sure it is here in New York as well and everywhere else in the world or most places in the world.

But let's say that you sit there and you don't give up your seat, right? And there's a person there who is clearly not comfortable or maybe in pain, and they could really benefit from you being the able-bodied person that you are, giving them your seat. So if you feel some shame in that instance, that's actually really healthy. That shame telling you like, hey, you're doing something that's not prosocial, and there's a chance that you might be ostracized by the rest of society, or you might not be accepted. So, hey, listen up and change this behavior. And the thing about shame, too, is it tends to be like an isolating emotion. It makes us want to isolate ourselves. And the productive part of that is, okay, I'm going to isolate myself. I'm going to figure out what it is that I've done wrong. I'm going to fix that, and then I'm going to go back and be part of society again where I'll be accepted. So there's a utility to it telling us to isolate again, and it's healthy expression. Most people don't experience shame in its healthy expression. Most of us experience it in a much more chronic form, and that means sort of more enduring.

And it's kind of just like always there underneath the surface, and we tend to not really recognize it. And what shame kind of says is like, you're bad, you're broken, you're unlovable. If people find out who you really are they're not going to accept you or they'll reject you. And the origins of that type of shame, that's not sort of like a biological just, okay, this is a response to a situation that's healthy, that often comes from two main areas. One is the familial environment. So growing up, when we experienced something called relational trauma, if anybody is familiar with attachment theory, when we don't really have that consistent, warm, loving, attuned parent or caregivers, then we do tend to develop what we would call, you know, toxic or chronic or internalized shame. And that can show up as becoming either like, you know, having some of that like avoiding attachment or anxious attachment or fearful avoidance, which is sort of a combination of both, which we can also get into if that seems relevant. So that's one of the main areas where we start to develop shame. And that's basically because we develop our relationship to self in the context of a relationship with someone else.

The person who is supposed to like, love us unconditionally and take care of us, right? So when we have that really healthy, consistent kind of like unconditional love, then we develop that type of relationship to ourselves. But when we don't, when we experience like abuse or neglect or constant criticism, then we develop a much more shame-based relationship to ourselves. And that's where things like perfectionism or with various different expressions of eating disorders or anxiety or depression or things we might label or DSM labels like OCD, various different anxiety disorders, addictions, all of that come to play. So that's one main area where we develop shame for chronic shame. The other main area is just being a human in this society. Because you know what shame sells. Like shame is really at the root of most marketing. Marketing is out there to say like, you're not enough. You need to either like, be more of a woman especially it's like be more beautiful, be thinner, be younger. And then if you do all those sorts of things, then you'll be enough and then you'll be accepted. So it's this constant you're not good enough. And by all means men or all genders experiences as well for men, it's a lot more around like you're not earning enough money, you're not tall enough, you're not powerful enough, you're not strong enough, you're not alpha enough or whatever.

But if you buy this like beard trimmer or whatever it is, that's the first thing that came to mind. I mean, maybe that's not the most appropriate example, but there's always some sort of selling point that comes out of like you're not good enough, you're not good enough, but if you do this, if you do this, change this about yourself. So those are kind of the main two areas. Like there are other places where we pick up shame, but basically within the familial environment. And then just like being a human in this world who's constantly inundated with, like, now social media. But historically, for us, like me, just TV shows and magazines and billboards as you're walking down the street with, like, models and people who are airbrushed and look so perfect, but it's this unachievable image or their life looks so happy. Or it's like the diamond, you know, engagement admin saying, well, if you're not I mean, I'm personally I'm 36, I'm single. I have no children. You know, like, I don't own a piece of property. Like, none of these things I'm supposed to have at this age, I don't have any of them.

Right? And so a lot of people and a ton of my clients experience so much shame because they're like, I'm not where I'm supposed to be. My life hasn't turned out the way that it was supposed to. And so a lot of the work that I do with them is help them kind of dismantle some of those cultural narratives that really are not representative of the human experience. They're just kind of, you know, some I mean, historically, I suppose there are some themes to them that majority experiences, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you failed. And a lot of the time, people make decisions to alleviate their shame because they think they should do something such as, you know, buy the house or get married or buy a certain age or whatever. And it's not actually authentically what they want to do. They're just doing it because they feel shame. They think they failed. Maybe their parents are disapproving of them or they believe society is disapproving of them. So my work and lots of people my work is just to help them really understand that shame and decide, like, it's something that I actually want or is this just shame telling me that this is something that is wrong with me or something that I actually want? Or shame telling it's something that I want? If that makes more sense.

Sure. And when you're talking, I started thinking of certain narcissists in the public realm. And I was thinking about how this person would constantly be the healthiest, the most powerful, most whatever right, the best. And they must feel so small, inadequate, they must feel so crappy that they're going to the opposite extreme and just constantly have pro tolerance criticism for pushback. They crumble, they fall apart, and they have a tantrum when they're not getting their way or they're not flattered or they're not seen as special. And I was thinking how this narcissific personality disorder, it can have a very profound root in shame.

Totally. I mean, that's such a brilliant observation, Marcia. And absolutely. So with narcissism, there are kind of two variations. I mean, obviously, there's, like, NPD, which is narcissistic personality disorder. And then there's, I think, narcissistic style. And then I think it's narcissistic traits I don't quote me on. I mean, you can quote me because I am, but like and you know, listeners double check that. But, you know, there obviously we all exist on like a healthy degree of narcissism, but they're obviously are pathological or very unhelpful kinds. And the thing with narcissism is that it has its roots or its origins in either really truly being abused or neglected and believing that you are not enough at all the time, being told that kind of stuff, and then developing what we would call like a false self, which is this sort of protective mask of like, this is who I am. And a person with narcissism often actually believes that consciously to think, oh no, this is yeah, I'm great. I am the healthiest, I am the best. And it's really just a protective or a defense mechanism. And then the other form of or the other origin of narcissism is when a parent really does pedestalize their child and make them see, because entitlement, like, lack of empathy and entitlement are kind of the main characteristics of narcissism. And there are more, but those are sort of the most defining characteristics. And so, like, that entitlement is something that often, you know, if a child is spoiled for, that's kind of like where the term spoiled comes from because it creates a situation where a child has no humility, they don't have a lot of empathy, and they almost perceive themselves to be an extension of their parent. And so when they're so pedestalized and told over and over again that you're perfect, you're perfect, you're perfect, what they learn is like, well, I can't be imperfect. So really it's interesting because narcissism and perfectionism are like two sides of the same coin. Narcissism on the one side is like, you're perfect. Like, you're not allowed to be imperfect, so just, you're perfect. Whereas perfectionism is like, you're not allowed to be imperfect, so you have to do everything you can to try to be perfect. And so really the underlying kind of root there for both of them is you're not allowed to be imperfect. So a person who exhibits narcissistic traits or qualities or has a narcissistic defenses, they don't know how to metabolize their shame.

They don't know how to sit with an uncomfortable feeling that says, like, hey, you fucked up here, or you're like, you're not perfect over there. And they can't handle that because to them that means they're worthless, they're unlovable, like all those sorts of things. So they have to come up with that defense.

Yeah. So when I think about myself as a human being and how I have, over the years, come to accept myself with all my warts, it's so liberating and it's so stress relieving to just feel like, you know what? It's OK to be who I am and make mistakes because I'm human. And perfection is neither necessary nor possible. So wow, how good it feels, right, to just be like, okay, I messed up, wasn't good. I'm not happy about it. I feel really bad about it, what can I do to make it better? But I'm not going to beat myself up because there's no benefit.

Right? Totally. Yeah. I often describe shame as sort of showing up in three different areas in our actions, such as you just described there. I messed up in our appearance again, especially as women and then in our emotions. So I guess with actions comes along with life stage and milestones and stuff like that or how our life looks. But oftentimes people feel a lot of shame around yes, I feel sad or I feel anxious and they feel shame around their emotions. So those are three kind of main areas that we experience it. And it's interesting because especially as women, I will say that because we're so socialized, to believe so much of our worth depends on like being a wife, being a mom, being young, being attractive. One area where I really think there is being a shift and I notice less shame in women around those areas is if they feel like they have a career and there's something that they like, there's a sense of meaning and purpose and stuff like that outside of those things that are often out of your control. So I'd be curious for you if when you're experiencing some of that shame or being hard on yourself or whatever, if you can kind of fall back on like your incredibly successful career and whatnot to find these other sources of selfworth and identity.

You know what, I'm really, really lucky because even from a very young kid and you know, bad things happen to me growing up. But I always felt like there was this core of self that was just there. It was like even when I felt insecure as a teenager and anxious and whatever as a kid, I always had this core of self and I knew that there was like that me was in there and that has really been unchanged. I was just me. And I always felt like that saved me everything as I got older and a lot of the got cleared away that me was still there. And so I've been very lucky to have a very strong self. Amazing for sure. All the things that make me feel good, the people in my life, the work that I do, my creativity, my pets, the volunteer work I do, everything makes me feel good. But I think it's that self that I just have always sensed and felt very strong, very alive. I think it's a life force or something. I don't know what to call it. Right.

Beautiful. Well, I hope through this work that we do, more people can uncover that strong core self that may be hidden, weighted down there.

That's what I try to do with the people I work with is like to help them find theirs and not through all the external stuff. Right?Because that's not going to help.

Totally.

Or roles. These roles. Right. There's one thing to do something because your heart is pulled toward it. There's another thing to do. It because people are telling you that you should do and obviously they're going to be a very different experience, right?

Totally. Totally. Yes. Great points.

So I want to ask you another question because there are so many things you're talking about, but we were talking earlier, before we started in our unofficial chat, we were talking about helping people, being empathetic people, and how it can be very challenging to set boundaries. So I wanted you to talk about how to find that balance between being compassionate and empathetic and sensitive and self-care, because I think that can be a struggle. And I work a lot with people who aren't people, pleasers, who are too nice. Some of them are tremendously empathetic. And so part of the people-pleasing is trying to curry favor, but part of the people-pleasing is because they're simply so empathetic and they just want to give love and care. And part of it is, I think they're trying to vicariously heal their inner child by taking care of the world. So how do empathetic, what do they call highly sensitive people, compassionate people who are moved by suffering? How do we set limits, have boundaries, take care of ourselves? What's been your experience?

I can tell you my experience, and I can tell you I'm very much still on this journey. So you're meeting me at an inflection point where I feel like I've made massive strides and also there's still further to go. Right. So, I mean, I think there are a few things that come to mind for me. First of all, I do think it's important for those of us who identify as like empaths or highly sensitive people or healers or whatever. I think it's important for us to both, like, really honor and acknowledge the gift that has been, I don't know, created within us through our life experiences and biology and everything like that. And at the same time to take responsibility for where that might border on what we would label as codependency or wanting to rescue or kind of like getting a sense of self out of being really only driving our sense of self from being like a helper or healer. And always having to be relevant to someone else is to feel needed, I should say, to feel as though we're worthy. Because that's oftentimes what codependency is rooted in. I need to feel needed or else I'm not loved, or else I'm not worthy.

And oftentimes we can track that back to childhood. Right? Like, for me, my mom went and dad split up when I was eight and it was a really, really rough divorce for my mom. My dad left and came back four times and had an affair. And like, my mom was absolutely understandably incapacitated by this, but she also like, struggled with mental health issues and addictions herself. So, like, there was a lot there that made it so that at that time, I remember very clearly becoming essentially like, her eight year old therapist. You know, I'm just kind of always there listening, and she crying and listening. The experience of being, like, the parentified child, right? And I'm super grateful for that experience because I love what I do. I can't imagine another way that I've lived my life or anything like that. But the reason I share that is because what I learned in that experience was, like, this is love. Like, love is taking care of someone else. Love is listening to someone's problems. Love is feeling needed and not. Love is just, like, existing as you are and you're enough as you are in your essence, right?

So for me, it's been a really interesting journey, especially with dating. My gosh. But it's been a really interesting journey trying to, like, reprogram for myself what love is and knowing that in friendships, in romantic relationships, like, you know, in any unfamiliar relationships, I don't necessarily need to be the person who's in the role of okay, wait. I'm listening to your problems. We're talking about something deep and emotional, like, you're opening up and crying to me to feel like there's a connection there and there's love there. But oftentimes those of us who are drawn to helping and healing, there's, like, a security and feeling needed because it's like, okay, I won't be abandoned, you know? And so for me, who has, like, sort of multiple abandonment wounds, because when my dad left, my mum left too, to a certain extent, that was sort of a way that I could count on like, my mom being there and being present was if she needed me, if I was being a therapist, essentially. So I think it's really important for a lot of us who struggle with being people-pleasers, and boundary-setting, and we kind of sometimes give it this really positive connotation and it's almost the same thing with perfectionist. Like, oh, I'm such a perfectionist. It can sometimes be a bit of a badge of honor. Like, oh, I struggle so much. Not too much of an empath, and I always want to help everyone. I think it's important for us to kind of take a step back and be like, that's not necessarily a positive thing. It's self-serving serving to a certain extent, and we need to kind of pull ourselves out of a victimized role and be like, I need to take responsibility for this. And that was, like, a massive thing I learned in my last relationship, was, like, I need to take responsibility for the fact that I keep going back to something that's not serving me. And I'm kind of, like, making it seem like, oh, I'm just a you know, I just want to help, and I guess and that and it's like, no, there's something in this that is serving me, and it's not a healthy part of me that's serving. So that's the first thing that I would say. I know it's a little harsh, but it's important for us to kind of, like, see it, not necessarily to see how it's negatively impacting us, I would say is the first thing.

It's ruthlessly compassionate.

Exactly, yes. Yes. That's a ruthless compassion for all of you. And it's, again, been like a hard truth I've had to accept, really, like, looking in the mirror and again and again there. Now, that said, because of those situations we grew up in, we really are wired to be more empathetic. Right? And so it really does, like, physically hurt us to see others in pain or, for example, you shared off air beforehand, like, to know that a cat is in pain and doesn't necessarily have a home or something like that. The thought of that is absolutely devastating. And so there are multiple pieces here that I'll offer. I'm into plant medicine. I think there's a lot of really compelling stuff coming out there and have been on my own journey with that. And I recently sat through a bufo ceremony. It's called? It's a five. MEODMT. It's like a very, very strong psychedelic. And that was an incredibly powerful experience for me. And there was a lot of relief and a lot of emotion that came up. But through that experience, it was just so healing. And after the experience, I was with the Shaw woman and I was saying I just feel so sad that there are so many people out there who can't experience this who won't have access to it or they don't have the courage, understandably.

They don't have the resources, internally or externally to be able to have an experience like this. They won't even ever hear what this is in their lifetime kind of thing. And they have to continue suffering and holding on to so much trauma in their body that I believe I was able to release through that experience and many other experiences like it. She said that it was just very profound, but she was just like, respect their journey. And here I was saying, but like, my mom, my dad, my ex, my this, my dad, I just feel so sad for them. I want them to heal. And she's saying, respect their journey. She just kept saying it over and over again. And it really reminded me, actually, of gosh, about a decade ago at this point, when I was working at a college in Vancouver, British Columbia. And I remember I was a very new therapist. I just finished my Masters a year or two before. And I was speaking with a colleague, and I think I was saying something similar, and this was long before I got into plant medicine. And I remember she said to me, she said, Megan, compassion has two sides to it, right?

There is care, but then there's also respect and respect for a person's autonomy. And it reminds me also of oftentimes when we talk about compassion, we talk about the Yin and the Yang, and the Yin is everything we think about that's, like tolerance and patience and warmth and sympathy and empathy and forgiveness and, like, all these really warm, cozy things that compassion is all about. But the Yang side is equally as important. That was a feminine side to describe. There the Yang side of the mask inside is expectations, autonomy, respect, boundaries, and expectations for growth and learning and everything like that.

Consequences.

Exactly. So, discipline and in the same way that we would expect that from a child or if you were the coach of a sports team, you know, you'd expect someone to show up and, like, go to those early morning practices, right, even if they don't want to. It's the same thing when it comes to compassion and compassion for others. And if we keep jumping in and trying to rescue someone, it's actually enabling. That yin side of compassion without the young side, it's enabling, and it can keep a person stuck. And it's the same thing with codependency. We want to jump in because we see someone suffering and we want to turn their suffering off. But the reality is, suffering is motivating. Suffering is something that will inspire a person to a certain extent if they're not so rooted in shame. And that's why I think a lot of our work as professionals is to help reduce shame, but not necessarily to rescue. By us taking a step back, it allows them to take a step forward in their lives. And there are obviously exceptions to this, but I try to remind myself that in any of these circumstances, that me jumping in and trying to rescue the person isn't actually doing them a service much of the time or most of the time. And the final piece of the add on that is that another thing that's come to me through again, like several plant medicine ceremonies and what not, is just this idea that there needs to be suffering in our ecosystem. And I know that that might sound harsh or extreme, but in the same way that if you think about the circle of life or whatever, right?

Like, if I look back on my life and I think about what has caused me to become, I believe, like, the resilient, emotionally intelligent, empathetic, funny person that I believe I am, so much of it has come out of suffering, right? That has been, as you said, that's been like, what? The shit has been turned into fertilizer. That's grown, you know, the person that I am today. And I certainly have so many imperfections in so many areas to work on. And I'm always humbled when I learn more about this stuff. And I'm like, oh, that's an area. I could do some work, right? And at the same time, I do love myself unconditionally. And I do believe that I am still deserving of friendship and partnership and happiness and all those sorts of things just by those imperfections. So this is all to say that when we want to jump in and rescue someone, we might actually be sort of stalling the ecosystem. You know, like there is something that might be coming for that person that's really beautiful and allows for healers like us to do our professional work and for people to learn through their challenging experiences and to develop that resilience that we are so proud of holding today.

Or that perspective, or that gratitude, that connection, that emotional intelligence for so many people. They have to hit rock bottom. Talk about narcissism. You'll have to really hit rock bottom to be able to rebuild that past, that false self or perfectionism for that matter. So, again, very long tangent there. Thank you for being so patient with my tangents. But those are kind of the places that I tend to go to, to remind myself when I'm in pain, paying for somebody else's suffering. And I also remind myself, just like any other difficult emotion, I don't have to react to this. I can sit with this discomfort, I can remind myself these things, and eventually it's going to pass. And ideally, a person is able to then take responsibility for their own suffering and grow through that experience.

So profoundly sad. And yeah, I really agree with you that we are not doing anyone a favor when we jump into rescue. We're infantilizing them, and it's disrespctful. And that's why I started my Ruthless Compassion Institute, because I really wanted to bring that word ruthless.

Because it's a tough word, right? And totally when you put it next to compassion, people kind of go, what's that? But it's all those Yang qualities of compassion, right? It's not about being nasty. It's really about allowing people to suffer and allowing them to have consequences and not rewarding bad behavior and not protecting them from the consequences of their choices and giving them an opportunity to learn and to hurt and to grow if they choose. And also recognizing that if they choose not to, that's their choice. And we don't have to engage with them, but we don't have to tear our hair out and get up.

Exactly.

And not doing what we want.

And oftentimes really tracking that back to usually an abandonment wound for many of us can be helpful because what happens is we tend to actually abandon ourselves trying not to be abandoned by another. And what that abandoning ourselves can look like is jumping into yes, like codependency or rescuing or whatever. And so what we sometimes have to remind ourselves is like, okay, I'm going to take a step back and I'm going to let this person suffer the consequences. And what's most uncomfortable for me much of the time is like, what happens if they don't want me in their life anymore? What happens if they decide that I'm not a good enough friend or I'm not a good enough partner or I'm not a good enough daughter or whatever it is? No. Like sitting with that discomfort of I might lose this relationship. We have to actually face that reality. But unlike when we're a helpless child who needs to depend on our caregiver for survival and that's why there's such an attachment and a need to kind of maintain that attachment, we just have to remind ourselves, I'm a grown ass adult now. I'm good. I can take care of myself.

I make decent income, I'm able bodied, I have my intellect, I have my friends, I've got all the resources that I need. And if I lose this person, I'm not going to die. Whereas, like, that's the unconscious fear is if I am abandoned by this person or if I lose this person, I won't survive. So it's really important for us to remind ourselves that as well and see that a lot of that like jumping into rescue or enabling behavior or codependency or whatever we want to label it as, it's coming out of a fear of abandonment.

I remember when I was as I've been practicing over the years, I was doing it full time. And I remember the more I got strong with my boundaries and the more my message of ruthless compassion got clear, the more people would self-select out and sooner. So initially when I was first working, people would like, come in and they would stick around and they fight with me and then, you know, they would go and now it got to the point where they'd come in for their intake and they'd be like, okay. And then they would not continue because I didn't even say anything in particular. This is how it's going to be. They can just feel the vibe. And I had a lot of paperwork because we have to provide written paperwork about the kind of expectations. So I had the missed appointment policy and the group policy and all these policies which exhibit a lot of boundaries and a lot of expectations and they were like, oh yeah, I can't do that. So it's been really fun because I saw that the more I walk the walk and talk the talk, the more people will walk away from me if they're not capable of meeting me there. And I always think now that this is a great thing because we're not wasting each other's time. I'm not what they want, they're not what I want. And it's also happening in my personal life where people will come into my life and I'll be me and they'll be like, oh yeah, this is not what I'm looking for. I can't mess around with your head. I can't play games with you. You're not going to let me do my numbers. So I'm just going to go and I'm like.

Totally. And isn't such a sign of the work you've done. Right? Like, it's so empowering to be like, wow, okay, I'm not a doormat anymore. That's for me. I'm like, oh, yes, somebody decided that they don't they don't want to go on a second date. Like, awesome.

I hope that anytime somebody chooses not to be around you when you are putting your boundaries up, you should be really proud of yourself.

Done. Good.

I'm really like walking the walk, talking the talk. And that's what I hope for everyone, is that we can just take care of ourselves. And then I always say, like, if all those jerks if there were more people with boundaries, all those jerks would have to change their behavior because there'd be nobody for them to be jerks with anymore.

Totally. Well. And it's so interesting too, because even taking it back again to that, like, narcissism label or whatever on that spectrum, what that really comes down to is it's just people who always need to feel like they're in a superior position or in a position of power, because the idea of intimacy or equality, it is terrifying to them. Right. And again, I know we've used the label of narcissism a few times, but I actually prefer to look at it through the funds of what we call CPTSD, which is complex post-traumatic stress disorder, which actually a lot of clinicians are now sort of deciding or postulating at least that maybe actually this is all trauma based and, like borderline personality disorder. And historians.

I've been saying that for how long? And people are like, what are you talking about?

Yeah, totally. So it's like, we can stop pathologizing it so much and just see this. Like, look, this is a trauma response. Now, that doesn't mean we don't take care of ourselves, right? Like, when we notice that when you see the person, you're like, I don't like your face, or like, this person decides they want to remove themselves from your life or they don't want to do the paperwork or whatever, it's like, okay, you know what? Good. We have to be very boundary to, especially as empathetic people. But, you know, it is just so sad to me because it really is just all trauma-based. And for so many of these people who are these, like, jerks walking around, it's because they are terrified and so uncomfortable with the vulnerability that comes along with intimacy and sort of surrendering that superior or basically to them, intimacy is an act of submission. I remember a friend once said to me, it was so profound. And, you know, that's just something that, like, you know, if a person doesn't want to work on it, they'll just continue, you know, living their whole life guarded and having to undermine people, you know, basically to be able to feel safe.

And so, yes, it is our responsibility to protect ourselves from those types. And at the same time, I mean, yeah, my hope is that we'll become more aware of this and will change these expectations, especially on men, that they have to always be powerful and in control. And really, all of that is rooted in shame coming full circle here, this is all really rooted in shame. And so if we can help people work through their shame, then they'll be more comfortable in intimacy and in imperfection and being seen in their imperfection. Because at the end of the day, that's at the root of this, like, either narcissistic or harmful behavior. It's really about not wanting to be seen in their imperfection. It's all a shame. It's a defense. It's a narcissistic defense. It's a shame.

No, I totally agree with you. And my attitude is anybody who wants to work on this stuff, as jerky as they might have been, I welcome you, I embrace you. Let's do it. But if you're determined not to work on your stuff, and if you're determined to cause harm, like, boundaries are us home, right?

Totally.

It's up to them. They have to make a choice. And my ruthless compassion attitude is like, okay, that's your choice, because ultimately we get to make these choices. You know, everyone who's been traumatized, everyone who's been wounded, whether by family or by life, as you said, life is wounding enough, like, what's happening in life, right? So we all keep having to make these choices about how we're going to walk through the world and then are we going to walk through the world causing harm to others because we don't want to feel vulnerable? Or are we going to walk through the world trying to heal and grow and explore and make a contribution? Be of service.

Totally. And the challenge there as well is that for a lot of people who, as you say, kind of walk through the world causing harm to others, a lot of the times it's because they actually don't have the empathy. Again, coming back to the narcissism, because they don't have empathy because they've had to be so cut off from their emotions. So for them, the trauma response for them was totally dissociating, cutting off from their emotions, and then they actually can't see how what they're doing is hurting people. Right? Because for you and I, it's like we do I feel like I'm haunted for weeks if I like this. I don't know, I don't leave a door open for someone or something. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm like that poor person. And they probably hate me, right? Like, that's the work that I'm doing. But for someone who has been so cut off from their emotions out of a place of trauma, it's very difficult for them to access empathy because they don't even know what that feeling feels like for themselves. So they're not necessarily they might kind of bumble around and cause all this harm and pain.

And it's not that they're like an evil person. They just genuinely don't have empathy or a lot of empathy to be able to see the harm that they're causing. So that's why it's so much better for us to be preventive about this stuff than remedial. Right? Like, it's very difficult for a person to work with a person like that, as I'm sure you've experienced the same for me. They come into the office and they're like, yeah, these are some of the things I'm experiencing. But they tend to drop off pretty quickly. And if they don't really necessarily want to do the work, to feel their emotions. And in some ways that's oftentimes a protective strategy as well because imagine at, I don't know, 50 years old or something 60 years old, you start to look back on your life and you're like, holy shit, I didn't realize that I hurt that person. That person, that person. This, this, this. So they have to kind of keep living in that reality that's like, no, everything is fine. I've done no harm. I just want to keep being in denial.

Yeah, exactly. Once they've done enough harm, how can they actually face themselves? So then they have to stay in the dead dog and keep causing harm. And it's this vicious circle. It's really tragic.

Yes. Beautiful. Yeah. You summed up basically my 5 minutes of ranting into one. Very beautiful.

It's okay. You're here to rent. You're the guest.

My current project is myself. My project is always myself. No, I mean, look, you know, I'm not really super defined yet on what I'm working on right now. I mean, I'm someone who has done many different things. You know, I have a podcast that I sort of, like, occasionally release episodes on. It's called The Failure Factor, and I interview entrepreneurs on their stories of, like, resilience and failure and challenge and stuff like that. And part of the reason for that was that I really wanted to tell those failure stories. So people felt really empowered to be imperfect and go after whatever they wanted to go after. And remember, it doesn't have to look perfect along the way. It's a very messy journey. I write for Forbes. I do have a book called how to Be Alone and Together: 72 Lessons on Being at Peace with Yourself. And that's available on Amazon. Half of the proceeds go to Active Minds, which is a charity organization around youth, mental health, and suicide prevention. But other than that, I mean, I occasionally post things on Instagram. I have a practice that I am very happy with. I have other therapists on my team as well. So if you want to work with me or a therapist on my team, reach out or coach on my team, for that matter, remotely. But yeah, other than that, it's interesting. I'm in this place right now where I just I don't know, life is really beautiful, and I feel really grateful to have built a career sort of not with much intention, but built a career where I kind of feel like I'm past that, like, hustling stage. And so, yes, I know most people would probably come on your podcast or, like, I have this thing or that thing. I mean, I guess I would just say, follow me on Instagram, and at some point, I'll probably have something more direct for you.

My instagram is Megan J Bruneau Meganjbruneau. And yes, it's like I've got another book that I'll probably publish at some point if I figure out how I want to tell my story in a way that seems, like, authentic and respectful to some of the characters in it. And I'm always sort of creating random things, but there's nothing really that I'm here to promote. I just like to have these conversations.

For sure. Well, let's then leave with a call to action for the listener. What can you say to encourage something apropos of our conversation today?

Oh, gosh, I think it's something that probably will come back to shame. This is sort of a very classic one, but it's always just such a good reminder. Try to become aware of your inner voice, right. And try to just notice, like, what's the quality of that? And if you notice you're really beating up on yourself a lot. I would encourage you to ask yourself, like, would you say the same thing to a friend or to a loved one? How would you respond to them? And that takes a lot of practice to keep kind of rewiring those neural pathways and start treating yourself with compassion. But it really does work, and I'm living proof of that. I mean, my journey we didn't get into it today, but my journey was very much with, like, pretty severe eating disorders and perfectionism and depression and anxiety. And, you know, once I healed those parts of myself and learned how to treat myself with love and compassion and as I would a friend or loved one with that yin and yang of compassion, Right. But a lot of room for imperfection. That's when I picked up and moved to New York City and started a business on my own and, like, didn't know a soul here and, like, just, you know, have taken risks.

Do things like this. Go on podcasts. You know, in front of thousands of people who have ever will listen and started speaking publicly and stuff like that. Which really scares me. So I guess my offering is that if you notice, if you're able to pay attention to your inner voice and it seems critical or sort of overly disciplinarian, try to bring more of that yin compassionate. Right. You're probably too probably strong in the yang, you know, yang, I should say. Yeah, but you're not necessarily strong in the yin, so bring a little more warmth and love and say what you would to a friend or loved one and know that that's not going to make you passive or complacent. That's actually going to be what allows you to go after your dreams and live your most authentic life. And you get to be the judge of that like nobody else out there is out there saying like, you're living your life the right way or the wrong way or, you know, if they're doing that, it's just coming from their own pain. So you get to choose whether or not you're kind to yourself and whether or not you experience relief from that chronic shame or not as a result.

Sounds like a good call to action. Well, Megan Bruneau, thank you so much for being on the Ruthless Compassion podcast today. I'm sure we could talk for another couple of hours, but I think we'll end here. Thank you very much appreciated.

Thank you so much for having me. It was a wonderful conversation. And really, you remind me a lot of things that I need to keep in mind all the time. So thank you for that.

This is Dr. Marcia Sirota. Thank you for listening. Please leave a review and your comments wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to sign up for my free newsletter at Marcia Sirota, Md.com, where you'll learn about upcoming online events as well. Also, we love getting referrals from our listeners about future podcast guests, so please email us at info at marciasirotamd.com.